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Cider Digest #1340
Subject: Cider Digest #1340, 26 September 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1340 26 September 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
US source for English-style cider bottles? (Dick Dunn)
RE: Pectinase ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Buying WA State Cider Apples ("David Schor")
OESCO style grinders (Jason MacArthur)
Re: Pectinase ("Charles McGonegal")
Natural vs Whites Yeast and sweetness ("David Blakely")
Advanced Cider Class ("Drew Zimmerman")
Grater mills and grinding seeds (Terry Bradshaw)
cider-touring England - a few perry-makers (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: US source for English-style cider bottles?
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 00:21:54 -0600
Has anybody on this list found a source in the US for the English style 500
ml cider bottle? What I'm thinking of is a relatively short bottle, flint
(clear), crown cap, straight sides and rounded shoulder, then a tapered
neck. It seems to be a commodity item for small producers in the UK.
I've not been able to find it in the US. I've talked to US cidermakers
who have tried without luck to find it or get it imported. I tried
asking some bottle importers/suppliers, again with no luck.
This particular bottle style is interesting because it's so functional.
The 500 ml size "feels" right for cider and eliminates the dilemma of
whether to have a 12 fl oz (355 ml) and a 750. The crown cap is perhaps
proletarian to some, but it's less than 1/10 the cost and more than 10x the
reliability of a cork. The clear glass shows off the color of the cider,
and the bottle is large enough diameter to give the color some depth.
(Common US amber bottles are purposeful for beer which is photosensitive:
green light interacts with hops to create a mercaptan [skunk] character.
But cider has no such problem, so let it be seen.)
It won't please the folks who want to encourage the idea of "cider is
wine". But that's a different discussion.
Please note: I'm NOT looking for suggestions on how we might obtain
these bottles! I'm looking for anyone who actually HAS obtained them
in the US.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Pectinase
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 08:42:33 -0700
The pectinase question is relevant on our own part. When we first started
production a number of years ago we used a pectinase regime recommended by a
large winery supplier. The result was a sour cider which went away when we
stopped using the recommended products. However last years cider had a haze
which could not be removed by filtration or gelatin and on testing, turned
out to be a pectin haze. We found several products to break down the pectin
in the finished cider without altering the flavor profile and are pleased
with the results. These products alone did not produce a clear cider, but
did break the pectin chains down so that the cider could be cleared with a
gelatin and filtration regime. I think with a bit of time one could skip the
latter and let nature take it course to clear the cider. This year I think
we will use a bit of pectinase prior to fermentation as insurance.
------------------------------
Subject: Buying WA State Cider Apples
From: "David Schor" <david.schor@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 23:57:04 -0700
If the readership would recommend where I can obtain a good variety of
Washington State cider apples it will be much appreciated - the closer to
Seattle, the better. Ideally, I'd like to get the apples before Oct 12, to
use the Meeker Mansion grinders and presses on Oct 14. Else, I'd also
appreciate access to equipment, if anyone can advise on this too. Thanks
very much.
Dave
- --
David Schor
david.schor@gmail.com
------------------------------
Subject: OESCO style grinders
From: Jason MacArthur <rotread@localnet.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 06:25:34 -0400
We use an OESCO style grater for our cider production, but seem to have
difficulty adjusting the plates which control the inflow of fruit to
the right point. If we set the plates so that our pomace is of a
desired consistency, larger fruits get wedged and won't go through the
grinder; conversely, if we set the plates so that all of our fruit goes
through, the pomace has larger chunks of apple in it than would give a
good yield in the press.
I know these grinders are common, so this must not be a problem for
everyone- I doubt many commercial operations have employees gingerly
poking apples into the grinder with sticks. One thing I've considered
is setting the plates to a more open position, so that all apples would
go through without jamming, and then dumping the pomace back through
the grinder, hoping that on this second pass the larger chunks would
get ground up.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to resolve this dilemma?
Is this a common problem?
Thank You
Jason MacArthur
Marlboro, VT
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pectinase
From: "Charles McGonegal" <cpm@appletrue.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 07:06:59 -0500 (CDT)
I add a generic activity liquid pectinase twice to most fermentations.
Once after pressing, but before fermentation begins. I have
circumstantial evidence that it helps keep the cap height low. (<3" over a
63" must depth)
Secondly, after primary fermentation and racking off the coarse lees. I
believe it helps settling hazes. That's hard to see in steel tanks, but
quite apparent in glass.
Alcohol doesn't seem to affect the enzymes I use - even at fortified wine
levels. Most oenological enzymes are deactivated by fining with
bentonite.
I've experimented with pectinases that have enhanced glucosidase activity,
and enchanced hemicellulase activity - but haven't drawn any conclusions
yet.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Natural vs Whites Yeast and sweetness
From: "David Blakely" <slodave69@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 11:01:54 -0700
This is our second year of making "hard" apple cider. We have been doing a
lot experimentation and learning a lot from this list.
One of our most interesting findings is that the batch of cider we make all
naturally is usually the best. We don't use campden tablets we don't add any
yeast we just get the juice from the local orchard then put it in a car boy
and let it do its thang. Two years in a row it has turned out great.
Do you think I have just been lucky in that the natural yeast has worked out
ok?
Am I a fool to think that in future years I should just use the wild yeasts?
Last years cider earned us a silver medal at the county fair.
Just as back ground.
We use natural unpaturized apple juice from a local orchard ( San Luis
Obispo California).
We have used natural yeast, and white yeasts- champagne, mead, cider, white
wine. There are minor and subtle differences. The cider turns our very dry
with a ABV of about 14%.
This year we are priming with malt sugar. How much do you think we should
use in 5 gallons?
I wish there was some easy way to add some sweetness to some of the cider.
We were thinking that if we used a beer yeast the cider would attenuate
earlier and leave some residual sugar. Alcohol would be lower but more
residual sugar would be left. We are going to experiment with this next year
but if someone out there already knows what will happen I would love to hear
about it. My thinking is that beer has a lower attenuation. I hope I am
using that word correctly.
Pax Vobiscum,
David
------------------------------
Subject: Advanced Cider Class
From: "Drew Zimmerman" <drewzimmer@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:19:08 -0700
For those of you who are considering attending Peter Mitchell?s advanced
cider course Science, Technology & Quality Control this December in Mt.
Vernon, Washington
Please let us know!
We need to decide by October 3 whether to offer the class. You can see the
course schedule and syllabus at our website
http://learningcenters.wsu.edu/skagit/cider.html The registration form is
also available from that site. Or call Sue or Debra at 360-416-7605 or
1-866-999-0272.
If we can?t fill this Advanced class, we may choose to offer the Cider
Making Principles & Practices course, which we had PLANNED to offer next
spring or summer. What is YOUR interest?
Drew Zimmerman
------------------------------
Subject: Grater mills and grinding seeds
From: Terry Bradshaw <terryb@lostmeadowvt.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:44:32 -0400
One last word on grinding seeds through my mill. This past weekend
while setting up cheeses I ran my (gloved and sanitized) hand through
the pommy to look for seeds. I was incorrect previously in saying that
the mill obliterated them, and could find a lot of intact ones. That
said, about 1/3 to 1/2 were fractured slightly, hardly pulverized but
certainly compromised.
That's all.
TB
- --
================
Terence Bradshaw
Calais, VT
1450 feet, zone 4
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com
Juice still available for the 2006 cider squeeze...
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com/juice/06squeezings.htm
------------------------------
Subject: cider-touring England - a few perry-makers
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:13:27 -0600
(I had started writing about our May trip to the UK months ago but just fell
behind on everything. I'll try to finish up with this article and one more.
The previous notes were in digests 1321-1323.)
As with the cidermakers I mentioned, I'm mentioning only the perry makers
we visited or at least tried multiple times. There are more good ones to
be found.
Oliver's Cider & Perry (Tom Oliver), Ocle Pychard. I *believe* the tasting
room is actually right near the A417-A465 roundabout at Burley Gate.
Tom is one of the best perry makers and interesting to talk to...he has
a feeling for each of the pear varieties he works with and how to manage
it...this is the sort of "magic" that perry requires but cider doesn't.
(I think his production is about 2/3, maybe more, perry, the rest cider.)
He has a selection of perry, dry to sweet and with various "varietals".
I suggest you try at least one dry--get the sugar out of the way and it's
easier to start understanding what perry is about. Info I have says that the
tasting room is only scheduled open Easter to August (Saturdays normally),
so check ahead to see when it might be open other times. Tom has been
building a new cider/perry operation in a former hop kiln/barn operation,
and what we saw is very well done, a source of ideas for anyone thinking
about going small-scale commercial. www.theolivers.org.uk
Ross-on-Wye Cider & Perry (Mike Johnson), Peterstow nr Ross-on-Wye,
Herefordshire. This was formerly known as Broome Farm. Only the business
name has changed; it's still the same place and proprietor. When we
visited, Mike was just planning his blending and bottling--an amazing array
of barrels of perry, each one getting attention to decide how it will be
best presented (sweet to dry, blended with another, etc.). More reserved
than Tom but still a good person to talk to, and also knows his stuff.
His styles of cider and perry are different from Oliver's; both are good.
Worth tasting and taking away a few bottles. Opening hours seem to vary
so check for what's current. Pleasant location for orchard walks too,
during good weather. www.rosscider.com
[Realize that we're now out of the main tourist season but into harvest
and pressing time - it's interesting, but the producers may be -very-
busy. You should check ahead before visiting.]
Orchard's Cider & Perry (Keith Orchard), Brockweir, Gloucestershire.
Haven't visited, and I don't know if he's actually open to visitors.
I've talked with him at a festival and had various perries. I likeed
his Blakeney Red (a pear variety) particularly. You should be able
to find his bottled products in good shops.
Gregg's Pit Cider & Perry (James Marsden). I haven't visited them but have
had their perries, which are excellent. I've heard it's worth a visit but
check ahead for times. Proprietor James Marsden is a figure both in
cider/perry and in local conservation work.
Hecks, Street, Somerset. See note in CD 1322. Interesting varietal
perries, worth a try if you're considering planting a particular pear.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1340
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