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Cider Digest #1354
Subject: Cider Digest #1354, 22 November 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1354 22 November 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: BIG ciders (Ira Edwards)
More on Big Cider/Seitz CP Filler (john brett)
Re: Cider Digest #1353, 18 November 2006 (Stephen Wood)
Re: Big Cider (dirkblaze@aol.com)
more on sulfiting (Dick Dunn)
Campden culprit (Dick Dunn)
Re: Big Cider ("Charles McGonegal")
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Subject: Re: BIG ciders
From: Ira Edwards <ira_j_e@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 05:41:39 -0900
In response to Dick's comment on big ciders, I have a response.
I am a brewer of many fine ales and lagers (even the occasional Big Beer)
I also make a lot of apple juice and ferment a bit of it for cider.
This year, I made 225 gallons of juice for myself and freinds, and most
of the apples came from unknown APPLE (not crabs) varieties planted 30-70
years ago(lots of stories from the owners...)
I have a few trees that I pick that normally produce 8-10 bushels a year
and the juice is regularly over 23 Brix. some of these are really best
for pies and eating, but some of the others make great cider when blended
propoerly (I recieved 2nd place last year at the AHA national Homebrew
competion in Cider where Gary Awdrey placed 1st). My most award winning
(in AK and elsewhere) is 13%abv and is Semi-sweet (3brix finishing) and
has great apple aromas and a good tannin/acid mix in the finished cider.
I DO NOT "CHEAT"
that said, most of my ciders are in the 6-9% range (starting at 16-21
Brix usually). We have a lot of sun during the summer up here and the
dirt must be just right, but the fruit sometimes has high sugar levels...
You work with what you have...
Now Cysers are a whole different story...Ira EdwardsAnchorage, Alaska
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Subject: More on Big Cider/Seitz CP Filler
From: john brett <jbrett@eastlink.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 09:17:40 -0400
I have tried a number of Quebec ciders that would probably be considered
"Big Ciders". In terms of concentration of flavours they are half way
between unadulterated cider and ice cider. I'm guessing the " bigness"
comes from the concentration of the juice by cryoextraction and not from
chaptilization and additions.
The ones I have tried are very interesting, complex beverages that range from
9.5% to 12% alc/vol. The one that was most memorable for me was "Sieur de
Monnoir" produced by Cidrerie Leo Boutin in Mont St. Gregoire. It was 9.5%
alc.vol - the low end for these big ciders - but had wonderful depth and
was far bigger than any white wines I have had of comparable alc/vol. In
Quebec these ciders seem to be designated as Cidre Fort while the lighter,
nonconcentrated ciders get the designation Cidre Leger.
As an aside, Leo Boutin also produces an extraordinary (to my taste)
traditional method sparkling cider. This is not one of the more high
profile cideries and their graphics and packaging are not flashy. But some
of their products stand out.
On another topic, we just purchased a used Seitz Tirex counter pressure
filler. It is loaded manually, can do about 1000 bottles an hour and was
originally used for bottling sparkling wines. Would appreciate hearing
from anyone on the Digest who has any useful insights to offer on this
mechanical wonder. You can contact me off-digest at jbrett@eastlink.ca
John Brett Tideview Cider Greenwich Nova Scotia
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1353, 18 November 2006
From: Stephen Wood <swood@farnumhillciders.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 13:21:40 -0800
I completely agree with Dick Dunn on the 'big' cider question. Why
detract from the delicate pleasures of cider? The 'big' California,
Australia, etc. reds, that shout at you from the glass to be amazed by
the winemaker's cleverness, aren't nearly as enjoyable to me as many
less assertive, grape/terroir-reflective wines (Pigeoulet, many
Burgundies, St. Joseph, lots of Temperanillos from Spain, etc.), and
this is doubly true of over-confident heavy Chardonnays (compared with
less cumbersome wines from the same grape). When I pour myself a glass
of wine, I don't want it to insist on my entire attention, or to try to
interview me. I don't want to wonder what strain of leuconostoc the
guy used for the ML, or what corner of what forest his barrels were cut
from, or how well-toasted they were, or how long he let it stand sur
lie. I just want the relaxed pleasure I get from a well-grown grape
and a winemaker who respects his fruit. This is not an indictment of
interesting or complex wines or ciders, but of ones that tell you to
shut up and listen. I can tell you how to make a 'big,' assertive
cider: use a huge proportion of bittersweet, blended with more fruity
varieties and a little acid, chaptalize with sucrose to get the alcohol
to 10% or above, ferment in new oak, arrest the fermentation before
dryness, leave it on its lees for a few months, then let it oxydize a
little (French-style). It'll be mighty big, and command your
attention. It will also be more about the cidermaker than the apple.
And I'll taste it, but not drink it. I haven't got room in my liver
for that sort of thing. The right apples, grown and harvested well,
and left to their own devices, make lovely, regaling, interesting but
unassertive ciders -- we should honor them for that and let well enough
alone. Apart from that, I have no opinion .
Steve Wood.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Big Cider
From: dirkblaze@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 00:45:42 -0500
I very much appreciate Dick Dunn???s thoughts on my question about "Big
Cider" in digest #1353. I???ve received several thoughts and ideas
emailed directly about the subject also that were useful. There is an
understandable slightly negative tone ??? or maybe just amusement ??? to
some of the responses, even the more useful ones.
Let me elaborate a little in the hope of eliciting more thought: in my
original message I asked about ways to add more to cider ??? more body,
more flavor, more alcohol, more character. Why would we want to do
this? Aren???t traditional ciders excellent products with great variety
and quality we can spend lifetimes perfecting?
I???ve sampled ciders in the US, and in the UK, in the pubs and in
farmer???s markets, and toured the "cider road" in Normandy, interviewing
farmers and tasting their products in the orchards where they were made
with pride in traditional and some in untraditional ways, and a few who
make great, innovative, nonconventional products.
Norman ciders show wonderful variety, in large part from wild yeast
which sometimes impart huge phenolic spiciness like nothing I???ve
noticed in an American, Canadian or English product ??? an example of
what I???m talking about.
Beer is a excellent foil for cider; beer is made from a recipe, not
fruit juice. Even in Germany, with their purity laws saying beer can
only be made from malt, water, yeast and hops they have a great variety
of flawlessly consistent products. And have you ever tried a rauchbier?
But in Belgium, where everything from wild yeast to fruits and spices
are added in all manner of ways to beer, they reinvent the whole idea
of beer. Some of their contributions to brewing include orange peel,
coriander, sour cherry juice, and legions of wild yeast.
I???d like to see cider be a much more popular drink, but it???s up against
some huge competition (pun intended). Take a sip of Sierra Nevada, or
any decent pinot noir. They simply have more (read "bigger")
personality than a typical glass of cider. Beer makers and wine makers
will point out that there???s a reason why the "bigger" of two great
products in the same category submitted to a juried contest will almost
always come out on top. Cider has its own charms and its own romance,
its true. To me, the fact that cider was the original drink for
colonists and frontiersmen in what is now the US is part of that. As
an apple grower I believe they have every bit of the charm of grapes.
I???m currently experimenting with ciders made from bitter, tannic, wild
apples mixed with sugar and other cider, additions of spray malt to
cider, spices, fruit extract, apple concentrate and others.
Thank you for your attention and comments.
Bruce Kahn
Skyview Farm
West Chester, PA
------------------------------
Subject: more on sulfiting
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 23:59:04 -0700
"Charles McGonegal" <cpm@appletrue.com> wrote:
> By the way, as a note on the Capmden tablet discussion. My copy of
> Concepts in Wine Chemistry (Marglit) suggests that for 50ppm sulfite to be
> effective, you'd need to be below a pH of 3.8. And I believe that's not
> counting the sulfite that gets bound to other chemicals in the first
> addition. At a TA of 4 g/L, I wonder if a cider's pH is low enough for
> 50ppm to have the desired effect.
I think the main part of the answer here turns into (as it so often does!)
"see Andrew's web site". Yes, the 3.8 pH is an important target because
that's about where sulfite stops doing much useful. But also, there's a
continuous relationship between pH and sulfite effectiveness...which adds
other considerations, such as that if you aren't careful in sulfiting a
low-pH (high acid) juice, you'll inhibit the natural yeast if that's what
you're after. That is, it's a tradeoff where if you under-sulfite you
won't get rid of the nasties (bacteria, mold) but if you over-sulfite
you'll kill the yeast you want or even inhibit a pitched culture. And
in the range of plausible apple juices, you're all across the board from
juice that doesn't need any sulfite at all to juice that can't be helped
by any addition of sulfite!
See Andrew's web site and look for the topic "pH, acid and sulphite
addition" at http://www.cider.org.uk
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Campden culprit
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 00:06:06 -0700
One common thread in the on-list and off-list notes on Campden tablets
over-strength and not correctly labeled seems to be "LD Carlson" as the
supplier, with tablets of sodium metabisulfite. Redux of my earlier notes:
Campden tablets should give 50 or 60 ppm (depending on US/imperial gallon
discrepancy) total SO2 at one per gallon. The calculated number for the
Carlson tablets, based on stated content, is 90 ppm per US gallon. The
label indication is 150 ppm per US gallon, which is flatly wrong based on
the weight of the tablet.
I'll keep trying to chase it down.
"This isn't right. It's not even wrong!"
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Big Cider
From: "Charles McGonegal" <cpm@appletrue.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:15:36 -0600 (CST)
Now that Dick has gotten right to some sharp questions on this topic, I'm
going to throw my two bits into the pool. I had the 'big cider' question
asked of me during Cider Days. I wrote this note shortly after the 'big
cider' question was first posted - but sat on it until now, just waiting
to see where the discussion would go.
Keep in mind that I'm not a cider-purist. I admire the '100% apple.
period.' goal for 'standard' cider - but have caved in to the pressure of
my local market. Partly :-)
And so... Where are the 'big ciders'?.
While the diversity of apples is marvelous (Like the curry flavored
Granite Beauty that Ben Watson brought to Cider Days), it also tends to be
subtle. The distance between Yellow Transparent and Harrison is (IMHO)
not so great as the distance from Fume Blanc to Cabernet Sauvingnon.
(Pardon my spellings).
Also, there are many cidermakers (commercial and non-) who are reluctant
to push the bounds of process and still the call the end result 'cider'.
You can vary the amount of honey in mead and get hydromel to sack. You
can vary the amount of malt (and roast) in beer and end up with light
lager to imperial stout.
But cider is pretty much cider, no matter where it's grown and expressed.
Good old 'standard' cider - fresh juice and respectful, minimalist cellar
treatment just doesn't get 'big' in the SuperBurgandy red wine sense. It
can be wonderfully diverse (if subtle) within it's basic nature, though.
That said, there are other beverages that are _kin_ to cider and remain
all apple. Two of them are available to non-commercial cidermakers (in
the US, trying to stay legal).
1) Ice cider. Freeze the juice and collect the most concentrated as it
thaws. This may take several cycles, but juice can be pushed to >30 Brix.
Very intense and flavorful. There are other, harder, ways to make it, too.
2) Apple mistelle. The Normandy version is called 'pommeau'. Commonly
called 'infusions' in the midwest and now cropping up as a category under
that name in wine competitions. (Vermouth is a herb-flavored grape
mistelle.) Blend juice with cider brandy or apple eau de vie to port-like
strength (14-21%ABV). Also very intense and flavorful.
So called 'specialty' ciders chaptalize and/or flavor with (often)
non-apple ingredients. They may (or may not) retain a lot of cider-like
character. Apfelwine is between a 'standard' cider and the two intense
cider-cousins I mention.
Bulking up a cider must with apple concentrate, or freeze-concentrated
reserve juice makes it 'bigger' - but does that count as the minimalist
cellar treatment that many cidermakers cherish? Does it still result in
'cider'? Colloquially, yes. To the groups trying to stake out a protected
place for traditional cider (Like the Three Counties group) - probably
not.
- --
"This discussion may also be of some service to the future of Cider, if it
clears up any confusion which may have existed as to the great
difference between a real sparkling Cider, made by the expensive
processes described, and the muddy imitations which, fizzing in beer
bottles, masquerade to the detriment and prejudice of the genuine
product."
Revival of Cider, HP Bulmer & Co. ca. 1908
Charles McGonegal
President / Cidermaker
AEppelTreow Winery
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End of Cider Digest #1354
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