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Cider Digest #1316
Subject: Cider Digest #1316, 22 April 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1316 22 April 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Strange After Taste In Farm Cider ("Karpien, Peter")
Newbie seeks Advise for Applejack ("Timothy")
Re: Buzz Off Judging (Kevin Pratt)
BUZZ Off - CORRECTION ("Christopher Clair")
scion-specific suckering?!? (Dick Dunn)
Re: Growing your own ("Ray Blockley")
Excess tannin (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: Strange After Taste In Farm Cider
From: "Karpien, Peter" <Peter.Karpien@xerox.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:33:21 -0400
This year I increased my production by 10 fold moving up from a 5 gallon
carboy to a 52 gallon bourbon barrel.
I fermented in the barrel from the end of November until mid January.
The barrel is in my basement and temperatures range from about 45 - 60
degrees. I did not rack the cider, but simply added a wooden spigot and
enjoyed the cider directly from the barrel as my grandfather has done
for decades. =20
The cider continued to clear after tapping and over the next four weeks
and tasted fine. After about 8 weeks a very strange, almost metallic
aftertaste started to develop. I would say about 20 gallons had been
drawn at this point and I feared the worst.
I have since racked to 2 glass carboys and 1 15 gallon demi-john. The
strange taste is still there, but has lessoned.
Does anyone have any theories on what caused the taste and if there is
anything I can do remedy the situation.
I have heard adding vitamin C to wine can resolve oxidation if this is
the problem.
Thanks,
Peter Karpien
------------------------------
Subject: Newbie seeks Advise for Applejack
From: "Timothy" <tboger111@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:29:42 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Newbie seeks Advise for Applejack
I have been doing some reading on the net about Cider, Hard Cider, and
Applejack. Making quality, good tasting applejack is my ultimate goal. Below
is my plan on how to proceed based on my reading. I am open to ideas or
corrections as I only have book smarts, no experience. This is Spring time,
and the apple blossoms are just starting, so I have some time to plan.
GET THE APPLES: I found an apple orchard that will sell "cider apples" for
$5 a bushel this fall. Not sure how much is in a bushel, but I estimate
about 45 lbs. I think I need about 3 varieties of apples. I like sweet cider
so I need 2 sweet variety to 1 sour.
PRESS THE APPLES: I will take about 10 bushels to a local custom cider press
I found and make the cider without pasteurization and preservatives. I
estimate that 10 bushels will yield about 30 gallons of cider. I don?t know
how much to expect to be charged for the pressing?
HARDEN THE CIDER I plan to place the 30 gallons in some kind of sealed
container. Not sure what kind of containers, plastic, wood, many small or
one large? I am thinking about plastic 5 gallon water jugs. My reading says
that adding sugar and yeast is NOT necessary, so I plan to keep it simple
the first time, unless adding something really makes it better. The
container(s) of this primary fermentation, will be capped with a small hose
going into a bucket of water allowing the CO2 to escape and not letting air
to enter. This will sit in my basement at about 55-60 degrees F.
After about 2 or 3 months, which I?m not sure how long is better, I plan to
siphon the fermented juice into a secondary fermenting container(s) being
careful not to gather the cloudy juice at the bottom. How long to stay in
secondary fermentation before going to the freezer for the jack process is
unclear? What about additives such as raisins and oranges at this point?
What to do with this cloudy juice? Can it be filtered and put it into
secondary fermentation? Is secondary fermentation best to do in a wooden
barrel? Also at this point, I?m unclear how to prevent the juice from going
to vinegar as air now comes in contact with it during the transfer.
MAKE THE APPLEJACK. This is the simple part of the process from what I read.
I place the fermented juice in a flexible container. Place the juice in a
deep freezer, get the temperature down to minus 30 F and remove the ice as
it forms on top. The remainder is the Applejack. I?m guessing that 30
gallons of cider will produce about 8-10 gallons of applejack. This should
be a years supply, enough for myself and as gifts for friends and relatives.
How to store this I?m not sure. Regular bottles unrefrigerated?
Tim from NE Ohio tbrouter@gawab.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Buzz Off Judging
From: Kevin Pratt <oh2bontv@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:39:03 -0700 (PDT)
Reply at bottom:
> > All judges must be BJCP certified (any ranking) OR have relevant experience.
> > Sorry for the omission.
>
> omission? or change in policy?!
> BUZZ Off has required BJCP cert for judges for a number of years, a fact
> which had caused a few grumbles in the cider (and mead) worlds. If that's
> just changed, it's a good thing since it opens the possibility of "specialty"
> judges who can do justice to cider under the newer style guidelines (and
> also help their fellow judges understand some of the finer points).
>
> When will you be able to announce who the judges are? That might make a
> difference to some potential entrants--that is, the difference between
> allowing or inviting non-BJCP judges -vs- actually getting them. I think
> if you had even one judge who's recognized in the cider community, you
> might pull a lot more cider entries.
> - --
Dick, Is it so vitriolic that attacks on wording have to happen?
Didn't you have a major part in writing the current guidelines?
Methinks you are asking for some kind of appeasment that may not lead to
total satisfaction. It is a matter of fact that the BJCP has not fully
addressed the knowlege of cider (or mead). Berating it doesn't help.
It is also a matter of fact that there is a dearth of information on
the subject. Sure, there are a few books and articles, but not nearly as
common and accessable as on beer.
It is also a matter of some relevance that cider makers have very strong
opinions, which would surely be influential on any judging. By this,
I mean that they may likely judge to their palate and not to the range
of variation that the current guidelines represent. This is quite common
when professional brewers judge beer without BJCP credentials.
I think it is pretty cool that an organizer would even ask for judges
on this and the mead forum, instead of beer-only forums. It is an open
invitation to the group knowlege and a chance to educate, rather than vent.
Perhaps advice on middle ground is warranted, instead of a dare onto
no-man's land?
OTOH, there is now a committee to create Cider (and mead) credentials.
How many here have used this opportunity to voice an opinion? At the very
least, a list of very comprehensive and well writte books on the subject
is needed.
Kevin Pratt
BJCP CEP Assistant Director
------------------------------
Subject: BUZZ Off - CORRECTION
From: "Christopher Clair" <buzzclub@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:35:02 -0400
Dick Dunn wrote:
>omission? or change in policy?!
>BUZZ Off has required BJCP cert for judges for a number of years, a fact
>which had caused a few grumbles in the cider (and mead) worlds. If that's
>just changed, it's a good thing since it opens the possibility of
"specialty"
>judges who can do justice to cider under the newer style guidelines (and
>also help their fellow judges understand some of the finer points).
- - --
Not really an omission as much as an oversight. The wording was just copied
from year to year and I have to confess to missing the "strength" of that
statement. We've always had judges without BJCP certification as long as
they have relevant experience. What I do want to avoid is someone walking
up who says, "hey, I like cider (or mead, or beer), let me judge!" I want
to try to get folks to judge who have good experience with the styles or
experience judging (preferably both). Sorry for giving the wrong
impression.
I must admit, I never heard any grumbles before this year (hence the reason
I changed it and posted a correction). Why not? I am always looking for
feedback (as long as it is feedback and not an attack) and this was a simple
oversight that was easily corrected. I'd like to help promote cider and
increase our entries so not only do they get judged on their own but that it
generates interest to make and learn about thus producing better educated
judges. Anything that might help I am open to listen to.
Hopefully that clears things up.
Chris
------------------------------
Subject: scion-specific suckering?!?
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:40:50 -0600
One for the pomologists, growers,...I know this is a generic growing
question not necessarily relevant to cider, -except- that I noticed it
only on two cider varieties.
Today I was tending to last year's grafts, planted out last fall and just
now waking up. Everything that matters for this note is on the same
rootstock (EMLA-7) from the same source. Various trees had a few leaves
below the graft union as you'd expect, but a handful had -serious- low
growth, including substantial suckers (too big just to snap off with your
fingers) already.
What I noticed was that ALL of the serious suckering was confined to two
varieties: Major and Harry Master's Jersey. Could this be pure
coincidence, or is there some wacko-factor involved? Anybody else ever
see anything like this? Is there some way in which the scion can influence
the rootstock to sucker more? Seems very backwards to me.
I grafted various Jerseys, other English cider varieties, various culinary
apples, etc...probably a dozen varieties overall. The extent of the effect
was that (a) I didn't see this sort of suckering on ANYthing other than
Major and HMJ, but (b) I didn't see it on absolutely every instance of
those two.
Puzzled I am.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Growing your own
From: "Ray Blockley" <rayblockley@ntlworld.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 08:42:22 +0100
Hi Paul,
Although on the other side of the "pond", I too have only a small back
garden or yard in which to grow my fruit and am happy to share my
experiences for what they're worth. Not sure whether you have the same
varieties and rootstock notations in the states as we do in the uk? My
yard is rectangular in shape and fortunately faces roughly SSW and has a
slight slope. We planted a range of traditional English cider,
double-use and triple-use varieties, so covering all our eating, cooking
- - and cider making requirements. Having some sharper double- and
triple-use varieties also helps in achieving a good level of acid in the
blend to help fermentation and prevent spoilage bacteria getting a hold.
We planted our trees around the edge of the yard and grow most on a
timber post and wire framework as espaliers on MM106 rootstocks. We have
a couple of standards on MM106 which we are keeping to roughly 10 / 12
feet in height and one standard on M25 which we are letting loose at the
top of the yard. We also have a number of smaller trees growing as bush
"goblets" on a semi-dwarfing rootstock (was it M26? need to check...)
which we are going to limit to a height of around 8 feet.
The trees are:
3 x Dabinett; 3 x Yarlington Mill; 1 x Kingston Black; 1 x Harry Masters
Jersey; 1 x Stoke Red; 1 x Tom Putt; 1 x Royal Somerset; 1 x King of the
Pippins.
We started planting in winter 1999/2000, so the oldest tree has been in
the ground for some 6 years, the youngest just a year. However, in 2004
we pressed 9 (uk) gallons of juice from the crop, which is not a bad
return in four years.
If you are interested, have a look at this page which I made on the
ukcider wiki: http://ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Homemade_Cider_Press
which shows some photos of our 04 crop and us pressing it.
Hope the above is some use or at least confirms it can be done on a very
small scale. Let me know if I can help in any other way, i.e. with
photos of the trees and training.
Good luck.
Ray.
------------------------------
Subject: Excess tannin
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:37:46 +0100
Michael Arighi wrote:
>
> Do I remember that the classic French method of egg-white fining for
> red wines tends to reduce tannin, and was, in fact, dependent on
> their presence? Wouldn't that work here, at least after the ML has
> completed?
You are right that a classical fining method involves reaction of egg
white with tannins already in the (red) wine. According to the
Ribereau-Gayon Handbook of Enology, you need 3 - 8 egg whites (unwhipped
but dissolved in a quarter litre of water) added per 225 litre barrel.
He also recommends this technique for softening the astringency of red
wines.
> I think the reduction in tannins is accomplished largely
> electrostatically (charged egg white ions attracting oppositely
> charged tannin ions)? And some of the fining is accomplished that
> way, as well, ...... I think that was the theory at the time, anyway.
Yes the theory of fining is still largely based on electrostatic
neutralisation of opposite electrical charges (gelatin is positively
charged at wine pH while the tannins and other wine debris tend to bear
a negative charge). This neutralisation prevents the "like poles
repelling" and allows the 'crud' to grow big enough to settle out by
gravity.
I would suggest that a better way of fining and/or tannin reduction is
the use of a proper winemaking grade of gelatin (but *not* regular food
store Jello type gelatin!). It works even better if combined with
bentonite to mop up any surplus, because it is possible to 'overfine'
and to create persistent hazes otherwise. See my website (Science of
Cidermaking Part 5 - subsection Fining) for more detail. This combined
gelatin / bentonite fining will probably mop up any spare ML bacteria
too if they are still around.
Andrew Lea nr Oxford UK
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
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End of Cider Digest #1316
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