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Cider Digest #1337
Subject: Cider Digest #1337, 14 September 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1337 14 September 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Poirreau ("Charles McGonegal")
Cider Pasteurization ("Mike Beck")
Re: Grinding seeds (Terry Bradshaw)
Re: foaming cider while bottling (Terry Bradshaw)
RE: Seeds ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
foaming cider ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
First time making cider ("Timothy")
Tannins (Andrew Lea)
Bottling problems (Andrew Lea)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Poirreau
From: "Charles McGonegal" <cpm@appletrue.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:52:39 -0500 (CDT)
I'm afraid, Ben, that 'poirreau' is French for 'leeks' - as in 'What cider
goes with potato leek soup?'
I used the Italian-sounding 'poirissimo' because I found one french
producer via google that called it that.
Round Barn Winery/Brewery/Distillery in Michigan also make a poirissimo
(pear 'pi' on their label) leans 'hot' to me.
Lee Lutes at Black Star farms in MI has made a neat varietal Jonathan
pommeau. I think the product he sells (not labeled as pommeau) is more
generic. Huber Winery in IN also hase some products along these lines. I
believe St. Julians in MI makes a pear 'infusion' (poirissimo) - very
sweet and fruity.
Based on wine competition entry forms, it looks like the wine industry
lingo for a pommeau-type produst is an 'infusion'. Only the cidermakers
seem to know the traditional term - and that it's not a newly invented
product.
- --
"To make an article is one thing."
"To make it known is another."
Revival of Cider, HP Bulmer & Co.
Charles McGonegal
President / Cidermaker
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Pasteurization
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 13:51:54 -0400
New York Legislature Mandates Apple Juice Pasteurization Bill #A07410B
While cider for fermented products has been exempted from this rule. This
will no doubt change the landscape of cider production in New York. I am
sure that of all of the 100+ licensed mills in NY, that not all will be able
to afford the equipment that is required for this process. Many people that
were making cider from their local mills will be challenged to find juice as
locally as they are used to. Even some of the mills that make the change
may not have enough space for the unpasteurized product that we value for
cider production.
They claim in the bill that a e-coli outbreak could have devastating affects
on the apple industry. This is unfounded. The Center for Disease Control
reports that leafy vegetables are the cause of more food borne illness than
any other fresh produce products. Yet the bag lettuce industry is as
growing by leaps and bounds.
Digest #1333 - Andrew Lea asks if UV is an acceptable method for
pasteurization in NY. Yes, It is accepted. However, I think even the
smallest of UV units cost in excess of $10,000. Certainly not affordable
for the operator making less than a few thousand gallon. This is not my
greatest concern. A presentation by Michigan State University Horticulture
Department at last years annual meeting/cider session revealed problems with
both UV and thermal pateurizers. Some were not achieving the 5-log
reduction required, while other pasteurizers were actually putting more
microbes into the cider after it left the process. This has more to do with
operator error/cleaning/maintenance than the units themselves. It is easy
to mandate pasteurization with a stroke of a pen and all your problems go
away. Maybe, but maybe not. I must ask what will happen to the NY Cider
Industry if a marginal cider mill operates a pasteurizer marginally. This
marginal operator sells tainted pasteurized juice, makes a few hundred
people sick. What will happen to the NY Apple Industry then. What will be
considered safe juice then?
It is sad that New York Apple Association or Cornell University did not come
to the aid of the fresh juice maker. Or do they have something to gain by
the loss of unpasteurized juice? Even sadder will be the lost
sustainability of the ever diminishing apple grower and apple acreage from
the result of this legislation.
Concerned Apple Grower - Juice & Cider Maker
Mike Beck
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Grinding seeds
From: Terry Bradshaw <terryb@lostmeadowvt.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:06:57 -0400
My $0.02 on grinding seeds along with the pomace says that if the FDA
did not determine that there was a cyanide threat in them when drafting
their regs, thereby necessitating a re engineering of the decades-old
grinder designs, then there shouldn't be a problem. My OESCO grinder
slices everything up to a liquid mush, and I get about three gallons per
bushel, sometimes more, with a 100 psi rack pressure. I have never
worried about grinding seeds but rather have been in the opposite
situation with a jaffrey toothed mill where the large chunks did not
yield a good amount of juice in the end. Don't worry about them.
TB
================
Terence Bradshaw
Calais, VT
1450 feet, zone 4
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com
Juice still available for the 2006 cider squeeze...
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com/juice/06squeezings.htm
------------------------------
Subject: Re: foaming cider while bottling
From: Terry Bradshaw <terryb@lostmeadowvt.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 20:15:04 -0400
I assume you are using a counter pressure bottle filler? One key with
those units is that the cider and the bottles should be as cold as
practical at filling time to avoid the CO2 from escaping from solution.
If you haven't tried adjusting the temps yet, I would before messing
with bulk additions. My sweeter, fairly sparkling ciders from 05 do not
bottle well at cellar temp but have to be put in an ice bath for a
couple of hours to reduce foaming.
TB
>Subject: foaming cider while bottling, only occurs after CO2 is added.
>From: "J. Kent" <Sheep@kent9999.freeserve.co.uk>
>Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 20:37:20 +0100
>
>We have been having problems bottling cider from the year 2004. if we
>bottle the cider still (not sparkling) no foaming occurs in the bottle.
>When bottling sparkling cider we get foaming up the bottle neck, this
>reduces the volume in the bottles. We think its the pectin reacting with
>the CO2 under pressure during bottling, when the pressure is released
>as the bottles are released from the machnine, the cider foams just like
>champagne. We have been advised to use a enzyme which will grab the
>pectin and pull it to the bottom of the vat (so removing it).
>Anyone know how Pectin reacts under pressure?
>
>thanks for any advice
>
>Jeremy Kent
>herefordshire, UK
================
Terence Bradshaw
Calais, VT
1450 feet, zone 4
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com
Juice still available for the 2006 cider squeeze...
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com/juice/06squeezings.htm
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Seeds
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:45:54 -0700
Taste a seed or two, if you think they would benefit the cider by all means
grind away. My sense is that while the seeds do not end up in the juice,
they may add a bit of unwanted bitter to the juice. Just an opinion no real
fact.
------------------------------
Subject: foaming cider
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:45:54 -0700
The pectin content idea is interesting, however when it comes to bottling
cider with CO2 I think you need to look first at other factors like
temperature and the amount of CO2 being added. You did not indicate what
type of equipment you are using to fill with. Gravity feed or Counter
Pressure? We used a gravity feed filler and recently installed a small
counter pressure filler. I can attest to a very shallow learning curve in
getting a CPF up and running. Before commenting further, would you fill in
with more detail on what you are doing? I think there are a number of us
interested as well as experienced in this subject.
------------------------------
Subject: First time making cider
From: "Timothy" <tboger111@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:19:04 -0400
Hi folks.I'm a cider newbee and since I never made hard cider before,
just read books, I thought I would announce my methods in hopes of
receiving constructive comments.
I plan to gather apples here in Northeast Ohio end of September through
middle of October. I will use at least 3 different varieties, sweet,
sour and tart. I will have them pressed and place the juice in 5 gallon
buckets. I plan to do 10 gallons at a time.
One bucket will be placed 4 pounds of brown sugar and a packet of
Champaign yeast. Let it set for about 5 days with a loose lid on top.
Next transfer the juice via a siphon to a 5 gallon plastic carboy. Place
all the settlements of the bucket in and cap with an airlock for 4
months.
Second bucket will have 2 pounds of brown sugar, 12oz of honey, and one
big box of raisons and a packet of Champaign yeast. Transfer and wait
same as above. I'm changing the recipe in hopes of finding a better
tasting cider by trial and error. I prefer a more sweet than a dry
product.
At the end of the 4 months I think I will bottle and cap the cider in
beer bottles. I suspect if the cider is dry..I might have to add a
little sugar before drinking. Also, I was thinking about making some
cider sparkling. I understand that process is done by adding small
amount of sugar (brown?) to each bottle before capping and before the
yeast is completely dead. I am unsure of this, as I don't want to over
pressurize my bottles.
I know this is a rough and primitive method. I'm trying to keep things
simple by minimizing the additives and hoping for the best. I don't
really know how or when to use a hydrometer for accurate alcohol
measuring.
Any comments?
Tim
tbrouter@gawab.com
------------------------------
Subject: Tannins
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:23:37 +0100
Chis Horn asked:
> Andrew, what percent of grape tannins are really the same as apple
> tannins???
>
> http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/science/1157349333239920.xml?
oregonian?scg&coll=7
That's a pretty good (I'd say very good) press article on red wine
tannin, considering what a complex subject it is even for well-briefed
biochemists. James Kennedy is quite a leader in the field these days.
We did a fair bit of work on it in the UK some 30 years ago at Long
Ashton, much of it sponsored by the UK port wine industry who were very
interested in colour development and the possibilities of accelerated
ageing via anthocyanin-tannin interaction. But all that work has quite
finished in the UK now. (Andrew Waterhouse at UC Davis, also referred
to in the article, is the successor to Prof Vernon Singleton, the wine
phenolics man at Davis for many years and who was the external examiner
for my PhD in the 70's. A small world!).
As for percentages, well the tannins of apple are polymeric procyanidins
based on a epicatechin structure. The tannins of grape are based on
equal parts of catechin and epicatechin. So grape tannins are twice as
complex (more so, in fact. because of catechin / epicatechin hybrid
tannins). I'd say about one-quarter of the grape tannins are exactly
the same as those in apple - but the remaining three-quarters are very
closely related.
On top of all that, though, the red anthocyanins in grapes are also
often regarded as tannin and in any case, as the article points out,
after some ageing they link up with the true procyanidin tannins and so
whole groups of new aged tannins are generated. So you'll forgive me
for not coming up with hard and fast figures!
Now, to shift the focus slightly to pear, for serious anorak chemists
there is some new French work just out on pear tannins. The abstract of
the paper is available free at
<http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/jafcau/2006/54/i19/abs/jf061090f.html>
But you have to pay for the full text. Fruit "tannins" and phenolics
in general is a very busy area right now - not least because of their
antioxidant properties which are allegedy good for you! No coincidence
then that Andrew Waterhouse was organising the Polyphenols and Health
Symposium at Davis this time last year.
Andrew Lea,
nr Oxford, UK.
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Bottling problems
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:52:43 +0100
Jeremy Kent wrote:
> We have been having problems bottling cider from the year 2004. if we
> bottle the cider still (not sparkling) no foaming occurs in the bottle.
> When bottling sparkling cider we get foaming up the bottle neck, this
> reduces the volume in the bottles.
It's not clear what equipment you are using to do this job. If you are
using a combined counter pressure carbonator filler, it helps to fill
the bottles as cold as possible (4C) because more CO2 is dissolved that
way and you don't need such a high pressure differential to get the
carbonation volume you need. Also, are you snifting the bottles
correctly after filling and withdrawing them from the machine. A lot of
foaming problems are really to do with undissolved air rather than
dissolved CO2. It's important to purge all air from the carbonating
chamber before beginning. You should be sure you are actually operating
the carbonator correctly before looking for other problems. After all,
beers are much foamier ("fobbier"?) than most ciders and those are
successfully bottled by force-carbonation every day. Check with the
carbonator / filler manufacturer.
If you are trying to fill a pre-carbonated drink without counter
pressure then you have a much more difficult job. Even if you keep it
as cold as possible then the CO2 will want come out of solution whatever
you do unless the carbonation volume is quite low. I think there may be
some (US) people on this list who have some experience of trying to do
this (Andersons?, Maloneys? Zimmer?).
>We have been advised to use a enzyme which will grab the
> pectin and pull it to the bottom of the vat (so removing it).
> Anyone know how Pectin reacts under pressure?
It may be pectin or it may be something else. Has any protein eg
gelatin been used during production? Pectinases are useful but
unfortunately only work well on juice not in cider, because the alcohol
is severely inhibitory to the enzyme. So it's a bit late to add them at
this stage.
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1337
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