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Cider Digest #1288
Subject: Cider Digest #1288, 3 January 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1288 3 January 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
carbonation (Mike Johnson)
Re: Cider Digest #1287, 31 December 2005 (Steury & Noel)
re: Harrison clinical data ("John C. Campbell III")
Re: Press Construction ("Gary Awdey")
Re: 2005 Glows Competition (dubious entries?) ("Gary Awdey")
RE: More Glows ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Distillers around Lake Constance ("hvs")
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Subject: carbonation
From: Mike Johnson <tomijon@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:40:15 -0800 (PST)
Greetings Cidermen,
I've been reading the digest for a couple of years, but this is my first
post/request. I made one carboy of cider in 2004-2005 season and three
this season. I have a recurring problem. This season I have bottled the
first two carboys and still have one to go. The three batches already in
the bottle were primed with either cane sugar or priming sugar. None of the
batches carbonated in the bottles. I used White Labs Sweet Mead yeast for
two of the batches and a champagne yeast for the third. My ciders are only
around 6% ABV, so the yeast could not be fully attenuated. I'd like some
ideas what to do before I bottle the last batch, which is made with White
Labs Cider yeast. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank you,
Mike, Arden, NC
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1287, 31 December 2005
From: Steury & Noel <steurynoel@mail.potlatch.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 06:53:47 -0800
re: boiled cider and cider
from: Tim Steury
Regarding Ben Watson's plans to use boiled cider, I'll be interested in you
results. I used quite a bit of it last year in fermentation, as it seemed
an obvious flavor and sugar enhancer. If added after the primary
fermentation, it's great--for a while. Later, the cider develops burnt
caramelly flavors. I'm assuming those flavors come from the reduction
heating process, though I don't know for sure. But worse, the acid as well
as sugar is concentrated by the reduction. I haven't given up on boiled
cider, but this year we're limiting its use to pancakes.
Diane Noel, Tim Steury, and David Steury
1021 McBride Road
Potlatch, ID 83855 USA
208.875.0804
------------------------------
Subject: re: Harrison clinical data
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 16:55:04 -0500
Ah ha! The lovely and talented Diane Flynt reappeared (albeit briefly
and out of country) mentioning that her ersatz "Spam blocker" is
swallowing inquiries on the "info@" on her Internet store, (that just
can't be too good for business when you're trying to make a living
selling on the internet) ... but nonetheless graciously allowed as how
she'd happily address my questions as to the brix, acidity, etc. of the
Harrison juice she brought to the the Shelton's CiderMaker's forum in
November when she returns to the 'States in February' ... So I'll
provide that data as soon as I receive it.
(orchardists take note, I know that Chuck Shelton only had a few
Harrison whips left when I ordered (and promptly received some fine
looking stock) mine. If you get yours from Vintage Virgina Apples, I am
sure you will actually be getting "Harrisons" since Tom Burford provided
them the initial grafting stock. If I had room in my orchard I'd be
putting some on standard stock just to insure it's continued posterity,
never mind the juice itself.. I don't think we want Tom Buford's
wonderful discovery (and the opportunity it presents) to slip away as it
did before Tom re-found it and as the Campfield variety it used to be
blended with (also available from Chuck Shelton) ..
jccampb
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Press Construction
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 21:57:50 -0500
In CD# 1286 (22 Dec 2005) Dave (drcath@tiac.net) wrote:
> For a welded steel press frame, what is an acceptable rating for a
> hydraulic bottle jack that will maximize juice extraction efficiency from a
> small rack and cloth set but will not place excessive stress on the frame
> welds?
>
> The frame is 2 inch square tube with fillet welds and the racks are
> approximately 20 x 20 in. I'm planning on 4 cloths per cheese in this small
> backyarder.
[end of posting snipped]
There were some great responses from Bill, Claude and Chris in CD#1287.
Ignoring strength of the steel and welds you intend to use, I'd just like to
supplement their responses by adding that in Vernon Charley's THE PRINCIPLES
AND PRACTICES OF CIDER MAKING (the 1949 translation of G. Warcollier's 1928
edition of LA CIDRERIE) pressing pressure is given as one of three factors
to consider in a press. (Drainage of the pulp and duration of pressing were
the other two.) Of particular interest: "The yield of juice increases with
the pressure applied to the pulp, but there is little point in exceeding
55-70 lb./sq.inch, for the additional juice will not be commensurate with
the extra effort applied."
Taking that 55-70 psi upper range and applying it to a 20 inch x 20 inch
press, the force required to achieve those pressures would be 11 to 14 tons.
You can figure out how close to the upper operating limit of the press you
want to operate and size the hydraulic jack accordingly.
Also, Chris' and Claude's excellent responses about welds and structural
strength remind me to mention that there are easy ways to strengthen the
joints by changing the geometry. Likewise, you can change the stiffness of
the horizontal member by using different structural shapes, adding stiffener
plates, using a truss structure, etc. If you don't do the fabrication
yourself, you'll probably find that most fabrication shop welders will have
a pretty good intuitive feel for what would be required to make it
sufficiently sturdy and (if you want to keep cost down) will be glad to make
suggestions based on pieces of scrap that they have lying about the shop.
Since this will be for your own use (and you won't be threatening yourself
with legal action if it doesn't work perfectly on the first try) I'd suggest
keeping it simple. You may want to hold off on painting it until after
trying it out a bit (you can keep juice off the steel with plastic sheet of
some sort). That way if anything breaks or needs adjustment it's much
easier to regrind, reweld and make any modifications needed.
Gary Awdey
Eden, New York
------------------------------
Subject: Re: 2005 Glows Competition (dubious entries?)
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 01:06:30 -0500
In CD# 1287 (31 Dec 2005) Dick Dunn brought up some excellent points about
ingredients of ciders entered into the Standard Cider & Perry classification
of the Great Lakes competition. It is a difficult question of where you
should draw the line and who should have the responsibility of drawing it.
You can hardly blame the makers of Strongbow for entering it in the
competition to see how it would fare. At worst it could have been
disqualified or fared poorly in judging. Only winners draw attention to the
results so there was little to have been lost. Competition organizers will
certainly have the option of rejecting entries or disqualifying them if they
know them to be low in fruit content or heavily chaptalized. Unfortunately
(and not surprisingly) the larger producers tend not to not volunteer that
sort of information. Producers and importers are permitted by perverse laws
and regulations to post disingenuous information on cider bottle labels.
Bottle label regulations are the weakest link in the chain, permitting the
largest cider producers in England (and potentially the producers and
importers in the US) to become draconian, cost-cutting, cutthroat,
marketshare-seeking pawns obtaining business at the whim of the Big Box
Mega-Retailers. Current labeling laws permit cider to be reduced to glucose
based alcopop. Providing more straightforward information about ingredients
COULD be made a condition of a cider being eligible for entry into a
commercial competition, though implementing the same requirement on bottle
labels would have more wide-reaching impact. Who should take responsibility
for promoting that?
In the present scheme of things, however, as Dick says it becomes a matter
of the competition organizer making expectations clear. Since promotion of
apple and pear products is a key component of the mission of the GLOW
competition it seems reasonable that it might make an effort to set high
expectations with regard to ingredients in the Standard Cider & Perry
category. I can say with confidence that the competition organizers are
approachable and open to suggestions. This is a ripe area for cider lovers
(and apple growers) to make their opinions known.
It is also unfortunate (and not entirely to the credit of the current state
of cider competitions in North America--and this goes way beyond the GLOW
competition) that appreciation for traditional English West Country cider
and French cider in North America is still in its infancy. In England it
would be very surprising to find judges in a reputable cider competition who
would rate Strongbow or Woodpecker so favorably in blind tasting. In North
America it is very difficult to find the dry, still, tannic ciders at all.
When the Beer Judge Certification Program (BJCP) updated the cider style
guidelines in 2004 recognition was given to English and French styles of
cider. It is good that addition of these style subcategories has generated
interest in them. Due to a general scarcity of stylistically authentic
commerical examples in most parts of North America it is not entirely
surprising that appreciation has lagged behind interest. That will change
in due course. In the mean time, as Dick says, there are growing pains. I
have yet to find a competition organizer in North America who is less than
enthusiastic in embracing the idea of acquainting the pool of judges with
authentic examples of ciders representing different regional traditions.
They are sometimes among the first to express frustration at the difficulty
in obtaining good examples.
Gary Awdey
Eden, New York
------------------------------
Subject: RE: More Glows
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 23:51:23 -0800
After proclaiming that competition "raises the bar" at CiderDay I have to
eat some crow. Two disclosures, first that our cider was the fourth of the
four ciders in the commercial English category, second that I have been
party to some of the off-line discussion.
What I found discouraging are the judging notes received after the
competition which suggested that because our cider lacked sweetness it was a
fault. It's not the losing that bothers me, but rather what I see narrowness
in judging of what a good cider should be. The idea that the mass produced
ciders such as Strongbow represent a desired pinnacle of perfection is
distressing. Not that this style of cider is a poor drink but that it
suggests a mistaken idea of what a range good ciders can cover. Having
attended CiderDay as well a number of Cider events on the West Coast over
the years I find that there is a wide range of really fine ciders out there
which do not bear any resemblance to mass market ciders like Strongbow.
Both east and west, small producers are combining heritage and traditional
cider apples to make unique and excellent ciders in a variety of styles. I
am very impressed with what Terry Maloney is doing with heritage apples and
how he has pieced together a mishmash of used equipment and local resources
to make some fine ciders. It is truly a West County Cider! I am also sad to
see people like Alan Foster leaving the scene after 20 years of working at
low wages to produce quality ciders.
My thought when we started making cider was that you approach it by
selecting apples which could be successfully combined and carefully
fermented to a good, even excellent cider. Given a bit of care, to bottle
and sell. The resulting product should be well balanced and represent a well
made cider, not necessarily sweet if it is represented as dry, but true to
representation and no faults. In reality this is not the case, this style
has become the product of extensive market research, blending, back
sweetening and flavor manipulated product chemistry. There is no art to this
just science and marketing. The only accident is that it was made from
apples.
If we really want something other than mass produced cider we need to be
doing more to educate the American palate, the judging community and finding
venues to promote cider.
------------------------------
Subject: Distillers around Lake Constance
From: "hvs" <hvschablowsky@gmx.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:35:25 +0100
Michael, you wrote that you enjoyed Cox apple brandy from the Lake Constance
area.
There are hundreds of smallsized distillers in this sout-western corner of
Germany, using their own fruit mostly. You can find interesting products,
single variety perry pear brandies for example.
The Association of Small and Large Distillers medals for 2005 (German):
http://www.kleinbrennerverband.de/medaillien-2005/praemierung-2005.html
February 10 - 12, the "Fruchtwelt Bodensee" trade fair at Friedrichshafen
will have a large distillery section (English):
http://www.fruchtwelt-bodensee.de/html/en/index.php?/html/en/home/home.php?l
id=3798
Hubert
Dorfen, Germany
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End of Cider Digest #1288
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