Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1253
Subject: Cider Digest #1253, 5 September 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1253 5 September 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Keeved cider final installment (Scott Smith)
Gary Awdy CD 1252 ("Silver Creek Cyder Co.")
the misidentification curse (Dick Dunn)
Cider in Norway (david.pickering@dpi.nsw.gov.au)
grinders (Dick Dunn)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Keeved cider final installment
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:14:24 -0400
With the recent discussion on Gary's article and PME I thought I
would add some on the results of how my keeved cider from last year
is turning out. My last report seems to have been in digest #1180,
and I reported initially in #1174. In these I reported on two keeves
that generally went OK; I had macerated the apples before pressing,
and added the PME after pressing. I added the recommended amount of
CaCl and am not noticing any salty taste at all.
I had two batches, but after removing the brown caps I basically had
one carboy of juice and combined the two batches. I fermented them
naturally with no additions besides a very small amount of GrapTan to
make up for the lack of tannins in my dessert apples, at around 43F.
The fermentation took awhile to get going, but it did finally get
going, a bit too well in fact because even with racking at around
1.028 it would not stop to be a sweet cider. It did finally stop at
an unmeasured sweetness but around the average "Reisling" level of
sugars. I then added a malo-lactic culture and let it go through MLF
at around 70F. At this point I didn't really think about what to do
with it and put it back in the fridge for some reason I don't
recall. In retrospect this was a mistake, because it was not ageing
in the fridge, and the taste was still a bit raw. That said, it is
still far superior to my previous three years of cider-making and so
I am not planning to go back to a non-keeved cider: it has no off-
flavors, and a surprisingly pleasant and complex taste for a cider
made from dessert apples. It has an unusual citrus-like flavor
component which I would not call bad, but I would still prefer not to
have and am hoping to age out. Note that the taste also bears little
resemblance to any French cider I have tried. After a few months in
the fridge I decided it needed to be aged some more and I put it in
my "cellar" (the very corner of my basement with many blankets thrown
over it -- 60F approximately). It has been "cellared" for a month
now and is smoothing out and I am hoping will be drinkable in a month
or two. One problem I was surprised to find is the juice has not
completely cleared -- it was clear when the ferment started, but it
still has a very slight haze to it now. I am hoping that aging will
eventually solve this problem.
Scott
------------------------------
Subject: Gary Awdy CD 1252
From: "Silver Creek Cyder Co." <silverckcyder@austarnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 19:23:24 +1000
This year I did manage a degree of maturation 6 to 8 hours, I'll be
trying for twelve next year. And as always I was a bit slow with my
Chem. additives.
To this end I was determined to give CaCl2 a try, but as started I was
too late to carry out anything resembling a KEEVE. What I did do however
was to dose my cider with CaCl2 a couple of weeks before racking (4 month
after putting it down and fermented right out), with what I believe to be
positive results. The difference in clarity was quite noticeable compared
with the samples that were left un-treated, I can't comment on what sort
of cap it produced as fermentation is carried out in enclosed fermenters,
but I can say that the sediment was substantial and it seemed denser and
heavier, and less easily disturbed.
I am so pleased with the outcome that I am considering a repeat performance
next year.
My question is, has anyone else done it this way, and was it considered
a success.
So for Gary, here is another veritable for you to look at ??????????
Cydering on
Dave Orson
The Silver Creek Cyder Co.
------------------------------
Subject: the misidentification curse
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 19:44:42 -0600
(at least this isn't another Southmeadow story!)
I've got various trees which, at > 5 years, due to slow growth, climate,
bad luck with weather _vs_ flowering time, etc., haven't borne fruit until
this year. I'm seeing what they do here in my part of Colorado for the
first time.
I have a Calville Blanc which is turning out to be rather "rouge" for a
"blanc"...also it is smoothly round, no lobes at all. IOW, not a Calville
Blanc at all. OK, so what other trees do I have from that supplier? Well,
golly, I've also got a Northern Spy which is bearing for the first time
this year. But it's awfully pale for a Spy, and the fruit is noticeably
lobed. Double-hmmm.
Perhaps in this case it was as simple as pulling two trees for an order
and swapping the tags as they were packaged. But I'd think the trees would
be labeled in the nursery, or on the way out of the nursery rather than in
the packing room, just to avoid this sort of swap.
I'm -hoping- it's a simple swap. I'll know if the Spy-labeled is really a
Calville as soon as I taste it, or perhaps it'll take a pie to be sure.
But I'm not familiar enough with Northern Spy to know whether the Calville-
labeled tree is really a Spy or some random variety that might maybe just
possibly perhaps look enough like a Spy to fool me. Mystery tree for now.
The curse of misidentified trees is a tough one. It takes years to know
whether the tree is the expected cultivar, and you may never know if it's
not quite the right rootstock. You expect nurseries to be very careful
with their labeling, but you know they can't be perfect. (Any of the
nursery folks care to comment?)
I guess I worry about the folks just starting out--the "aspiring cider
orchardists", let us say. How discouraging it would be to have just a few
trees, and after carefully nurturing them for years, find out they're not
the cultivar that's been planned and anticipated for so long. It might
just make someone abandon that part of cidermaking in exasperation.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Cider in Norway
From: david.pickering@dpi.nsw.gov.au
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 10:59:32 +1000
On a recent visit to pick up some trees (peaches not ciders) from a local
nurseryperson, we got talking about cider and I was told about cider from
Norway.
The story was that the cider was sampled some years back on board a cruise
ship and was:
- - served in small doses
- - was potent (see above)
- - was made from Norwegian apples that were "white"
Some internet searching revealed that yes Norway did grow apples and yes
Norway did produce cider.
Does anybody have info on Norwegian cider and the apple varieties used to
produce it?
Any first hand tasting experience of the cider to give a first or second
opinion on its/their merits or otherwise?
The figure of 8-10% alcohol was mentioned on the web so assuming all the
alcohol was derived from the source apple then the variety could be an
interesting type.
David Pickering
Orange Agricultural Institute, Forest Road, Orange, NSW 2800, Australia
david.pickering@dpi.nsw.gov.au
phone 02 6391 3800 fax 02 6391 3899 mobile 042 727 1477
------------------------------
Subject: grinders
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 08:48:49 -0600
Donald Davenport <djdavenport@earthlink.net> wrote in CD 1249, after
comments about press designs...
> As for the grinder, those are available commercially from places like
> Happy Valley,...
I've had a HVR grinder/press for some time now, and I'm not happy with
the grinder. Jaffrey makes a nearly identical grinder, or at least they
did a few years ago. The design is a cast-iron box with a single large-ish
cylinder with rows of teeth. The trouble is that with a single cylinder,
in order to keep cutting the fruit, the teeth have to be very aggressive.
But then they'll grab large pieces of fruit and pull them through rather
than cutting them up first.
I've written about the problems with the HVR grinder in past CDs. It
works and it's not a lot of effort to use it; it's just not very efficient.
You can get about 50% yield with apples in good condition (juicy and
neither too hard nor too soft)...but even that is a sort of "downhill
with a tailwind, guaranteed not to exceed, marketing" number. If you've
got a lot of fruit, you can afford the waste; if you've got a little bit
of a precious variety, that low efficiency really hurts. I think you ought
to be able to get -at- -least- 65% efficiency even with a small setup.
>...or you can build your own by running stainless steel
> screws into the rollers of an old hand wringer, making patterns of
> teeth...
I tried replacing the grinder cylinder in my HVR with one with screws
around the cylinder. I haven't found an approach that works yet--on
the flip side of the stock-HVR problem, this isn't aggressive enough.
The screws don't grab the apples enough.
The difference between what I'm doing and what Donald is suggesting is
that the wringer has two rollers working against one another, rather
than a single roller in a stationary box.
>...The best suggestion is the one made by Don Yellman a few years
> back. Get a brand new, stainless steel garbage disposal. It makes
> nice consistency pommace and doesn't require a shoulder replacement
> after a few seasons. (The bigger the better, HP-wise, since they can
> get hot and pop a thermal breaker if they're working too hard.)
I've come around to believing that's a cool idea, but watch the details
about the disposal before you buy it. Sometimes it's only a stainless
grinding chamber, and it appears that other parts are galvanized. OTOH,
in line with what Donald says, the more power the disposal has, the
better it's likely to be made...the amount of stainless increases as the
power goes up.
I've got an experiment going with a commercial food-processing gadget
for a grinder that is promising so far...I'll try to report on that in
the next CD or so.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1253
*************************
