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Cider Digest #1262
Subject: Cider Digest #1262, 25 September 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1262 25 September 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Fauxwhelp (Dick Dunn)
Keeving and terroir in Quebec (john brett)
Wisconsin Red Huffcap - bark pics ("McGonegal, Charles")
Flash Pasturization (DirkBlaze@aol.com)
Who ships cider now? ("Jeff Paige")
Last Call for Requests for PME Samples ("Gary Awdey")
Fauxwhelp (Andrew Lea)
Malolactic culture (Andrew Lea)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Fauxwhelp
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 00:26:43 -0600
Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@shaw.ca> wrote:
> At this time last year when I visited the English West Country , five
> acres of true Foxwhelp were being picked , smallish, very red and early
> compared to other cider apples on the farm...
ARGH!
This sounds like what I've got here that's labeled "Tremlett's Bitter"!!!
I know what I've got isn't Tremlett's...that's a known mismatch between
US and UK. I'm just arghing that I could arguably match my Tremlett's
to Derek's description of Foxwhelp, especially since what I've got is a
bittersharp, as well as matching Derek's other points: early harvest [I
picked mine today], brilliant red, small. (But yes, I know what I've
got isn't -really- a Foxwhelp.)
> When I mentioned our Fauxwhelp experience to Mike Johnson of Broome Farm
> who was machine harvestng the five acres of Foxwhelp , he suggested I
> walk along a row of trees which had several old Foxwhelp grafted on
> interstem and look for trees which had the interstem send up branches to
> overtake the grafted Foxwhelp. Some of these shoots were bearing fruit .
> It occurred to him that a common grafting error involves taking scion
> wood from this type of overgrowth thinking it is the true variety
> .Unfortunately he didn't know what interstem had been used in his
> father's time and though the fruit was large and greenish it was not
> really like our Fauxwhelp.
> I think Bulmer's Norman was once recomended as rootstock/interstem and
> Mike's theory might then point to our apple as being Bulmer's Norman
I don't think so. That is, I don't think what we've got as "Foxwhelp" here
is Bulmer's Norman, but it could have been a wrong propagation from some
other intermediate graft. I say that because I've got (or, ARGH again,
I *think* I've got, but pretty sure) a Bulmer's Norman here, and it's
nothing like the "Fauxwhelp" I've got. Bulmer's Norman is a bittersweet
and notably low acid.
I've seen Bulmer's Norman categorized as a "stem builder" (e.g., in Copas).
I don't know enough to understand that term, especially with cross-Atlantic
variation in terminology, but I had thought it was closer to meaning use
as a body of a tree that was top-worked than to an interstem segment on
the trunk. I can't see anyone letting branches grow from the interstem
section, let alone taking scionwood from it.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Keeving and terroir in Quebec
From: john brett <jbrett@eastlink.ca>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:56:14 -0300
Claude Jolicouer's comments about the superior quality of northern
Cortland Apples got me thinking about some of the very fine ciders I've
tasted from Quebec. In particular, the methode champagnoise semi- sweet
kinds which have a similar character to the one good Norman Cider I've
tried. A question for Claude or anyone else out there who might know:
Are some of the craft cideries in Quebec using Keeving to produce their
ciders? And if so, who are they? There's an elegance and finish to these
ciders to suggest they are doing something right.
On a related note, Claude's comments also resonated for me because I've
tried a number of very good Quebec ciders and have been surprised at the
apples they are using - Macouns, Lobos, MacIntosh, Spartans, etc - standard
desert varieties that I would not have thought of as very promising. Perhaps
it is the terroir that is helping out as well as the considerable experience
and technique of the cidermakers. I can certainly say that here in Nova
Scotia, with our acidic soils, a MacIntosh or a Cortland fresh off the
tree has a lot more 'snap' to it than the same apple I have tried in the
Ottawa area and upstate New York where many orchards lay over or are in
close proximity to limestone. This higher acidity does have an effect on
our blending and choice of fruit.
John Brett
------------------------------
Subject: Wisconsin Red Huffcap - bark pics
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:20:53 -0500
As a followup to my earlier note on a mystery 'cider' pear recently
brought to my attention, I'm posting some bark pictures to go with the
fruit pictures.
I've tentatively identified this perry pear as 'Jenkins Red'. Luckwell
and Pollard notes that Jenkins Red has distinctive bark with short
segments. I admit that I have no idea what this means in the real
world. I don't have enough experience with full size pear trees.
<\aside>
Perry leaves, on the other hand, are really distinctive and interesting.
When I was trying to ID this old pear, I ran out to my nascent perry
orchard to do a comparison with Yellow Huffcap. I really looked at the
leaves critically for the first time. The range in shape is amazing. I
wouldn't call it the same species, if they were wild trees out in the
woods. Slender spearpoint shapes to squat, updise nowd things.
<\aside>
www.appletrue.com\images\Bark1.JPG
www.appletrue.com\images\Bark2.JPG
Now, the real tricky question: Do I make a barrel of blended
common/tradtional 'country' perry?
Or do I make a complement to my crab-apple cyser and use these tannic
pears for a 'pyser'?
So many ideas - so few pears :-)
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery & 'Stillery
------------------------------
Subject: Flash Pasturization
From: DirkBlaze@aol.com
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:33:42 EDT
Has anyone tried flash pasteurization? This involves quickly heating a flow
of product to about 70 degrees C to kill organisms then cooling quickly and
then bottling. Product is heated by passing through a plate heat-exchanger in a
hot water bath and cooled in a similar manner.
Carbonated product is bottled using counter pressure fillers. This method
gives total control over carbonation and residual sweetness but bottling is
more complicated. It's the way most craft - brewed beer is pasteurized.
Bruce Kahn
Skyview Farm
West Chester, PA
------------------------------
Subject: Who ships cider now?
From: "Jeff Paige" <jlpaige@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:26:42 -0400
I just read that Ohio now permits wine to be shipped directly to its
residents from out of state (following recent Supreme Court decisions). I
assume this means that cider shipments are permitted also (right?). Does
anyone have a list or links for cideries which will direct ship? I have had
a hard time finding this information on the web through direct searches - I
mostly get hits for Woodchuck and various Bulmer's brands. Is there a
website with a decent current listing of U.S.-based cideries?
Thanks,
Jeff Paige
------------------------------
Subject: Last Call for Requests for PME Samples
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 13:31:57 -0400
Another reminder for anyone giving thought to doing a PME-assisted keeve
this year: Send your request for a free sample to me at gawdey@att.net,
along with the amount of cider you'd plan to keeve with it and your shipping
address.
Refer back to CD#1255 in the archives
(http://www.talisman.com/cider/cury/index.html) or email me off-Digest if
you need more information. Also, for those who will be doing side-by-side
comparisons of small batches with and without PME (to find out if it really
makes much difference with the apples and process you use) I'll be happy to
include extra CaCl2 for the control batch (for combined batch volume up to
about 20 gallons). Just let me know.
It took longer than expected but for all requests already received samples
are entirely ready to ship and will be mailed on Monday, Sept. 26 (so they
won't sit around in a warm post office or warehouse all day Sunday). For
those who are receiving a sample it'd be a good idea to put it in the
refrigerator as soon as you can, though the enzyme isn't completely
inactivated unless it is heated to about 140 degrees farenheit (60 degrees
C).
So far this year's sample requestors are located in:
THE US
Alaska
California
Colorado
Idaho
Indiana
Michigan
Missouri
New York
Oregon
Texas
Vermont
Washington
CANADA
British Columbia
Nova Scotia
Quebec
ENGLAND
TASMANIA
Last year there were several October/November additions to the list and that
seems likely to occur again this year. Of the requests made to date, the
smallest batch size is 5 gallons and the largest is 500 gal.
Gary Awdey
Eden, New York
------------------------------
Subject: Fauxwhelp
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:50:25 +0100
Derek Bissett wrote:
>
> At this time last year when I visited the English West Country , five
> acres of true Foxwhelp were being picked , smallish, very red and early
> compared to other cider apples on the farm .
In case it helps anybody, here is a link to a picture of genuine UK
Broxwood Foxwhelp. As Derek said, it is smallish and very early. It
is also very acid (up to 2%). The fruit is very aromatic and rich
(think Spartan / Macintosh / Red Delicious but with a much much deeper
and complex earthy note). I am just harvesting mine here in Southern
England now (24th September).
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/foxwhelp_on_tree.jpg
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Malolactic culture
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:20:55 +0100
Bradley Hunter wrote:
>
> This season the grape vines in my micro vineyard are coming of age
> and with the expectation of pressing at least a couple of carboys of
> reds I finally invested in a Chromatography test kit to test for
> completion of malolactic ferment in the wine.
>
If you use the same test kit for apples be aware that in grapes only
about 10% of the acid is malic so only that 10% can go to lactic. The
remaining 90% remains unchanged as tartaric. In apples 90% of the acid
is malic so the conversion to lactic is much more startling and your
total acidity will drop by one-half. You need to interpret the
chromatography rather differently in cider than in wine.
> I bought Enoferm Alpha bacteria to add to my grape wine and , now
> that I have the option, I'm wondering if it would be advisable to
> also add it (after initial fermentation is all or nearly completed)
> to my high acid ciders?
>
I have used BioStart Oenos which is probably fairly similar and it works
well even down to pH 3.1. It does need a minimum temperature of 17C
and even then takes several months (at UK summer temperature) to work to
completion. Received wisdom is that it should not be added till all the
yeast fermentation is quite finished since the yeast may be antagonistic
to the bacteria. It is also popularly believed that some yeast autolysis
is required to 'feed' the MLF bacteria.
> I know that in fruit forward white wines like Rieslings,
> Gewurstraminers and Muscats a malolactic ferment is not appropriate
> but I'm unclear as to whether 'all' ciders or just particularly high
> acid ones would benefit from this treatment.
It all depends. The downside as I mentioned is that your total acid
will drop by one half. If your acid is already 0.7% or greater, that's
probably OK, maybe even desirable, but if it starts off at < 0.5% then
you'll end up at < 0.25% which is really rather insipid and you may not
like the result. The other thing is that it totally destroys any
'fruity character'. You end up with much more rounded notes (you can
imagine 'buttery' if you like!)., and you may or may not like the
result. My experience is that added cultures do a much more complete
job than the natural MLF (as you might expect!) but they do not seem to
give the spicy notes which traditional MLF is supposed to confer to
bittersweet ciders. I suggest you try an inoculated sample vs a control
and see which you like the best!
Andrew Lea,
nr Oxford, UK.
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1262
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