Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1302
Subject: Cider Digest #1302, 22 February 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1302 22 February 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: fermentation temperatures (Bill Rhyne)
cider apples and pruning ("Mark Parranto")
scionwood of/ for cider and perry varieties (verlindetaal)
Tree Pruning (Dl140@aol.com)
Re: slow fermentation temperatures (Terry Bradshaw)
Anyone using a "heat pipe" to cool fermenter? How about a peltier (Bill V...)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: fermentation temperatures
From: Bill Rhyne <bill_rhyne@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:11:19 -0800 (PST)
My wife brought home a book published in 1822 and it had a section on
cider production. I have only had time to skim through it but it discussed
fermentation temperatures so that is the purpose of this e-mail. The
book is titled " The American Orchardist: A Practical Treatise on the
culture and management of Apple and other Fruit Trees", published by Joseph
W. Ingraham(1822) Boston. It has a section called "The most approved method
of manufacturing and preserving cider, compiled from the latest and most
approved authorities, and adapted to the use of American Farmers." The
book's author , James Thacher, M.D., quotes a " Mr. Marshall" from some
papers published by the Massachusetts society for promoting agriculture,
Vol.1. Mr. Marshall's comments are influenced from conversation with a
Mr. Bellamy of Herefordshire, England. According to these folks, "Cider
requires a very gentle fermentation, and ought to be confined between
forty-four and forty eight degrees of heat Fahrenheit." (p.146) The author
goes on to recommend fermenting on the north side of the building where
it is shadier. The author seemed to prefer racking the cider to arrest
the fermentation and retain some sweetness and apple character, but he
described other ways of making cider, such as leaving it on the lees while
fermenting to full strength. He is writing for a Massachusetts audience
as he gives calendar dates, such as "...the cider be not fine by the
20th or 25th of February, it should be forced with isinglass." (p.148)
It is kind of fun to read and compare notes with one's own experiences
in traditional cider making. American cider was a big industry when this
book was published and it gives some of the prices that farmers were able
to get for their cider. The good stuff was compared to the popular drink
in France of that time, champagne. The not-so-good stuff was saved for
"field work", which I interpret to mean for the hot humid days in the
summer when a cool wet drink would suffice.
There is also a section describing about 75 apples, some pears, peaches,
and cherries. There were comments about the cider or perry potential of
the different varieties.
Enjoy!
Bill Rhyne
------------------------------
Subject: cider apples and pruning
From: "Mark Parranto" <apple@mninter.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 21:49:11 -0600
Jason asked about pruning in #1298. I treat my cider varieties the same as
my dessert apples. From his description I would suggest cutting off 1 or 2
of the low branches if the others can be bent down. A fruiting branch will
have a crotch angle of 45deg or more from the leader. A branch that is 90
deg will be stronger and hold more apples. The tree thinks a horizontal
branch is the fruiting branch and not the leader, so it puts out more buds
there and does not try to grow too long. Vertical branches think they are
the leader and will race all the other vertical ones for the sky and not
produce much, if any fruit. If none of the branhes can be bent down because
they are already too thick to bend I might cut them all off and work with
the upper branches to try to get fruiting branches. The best theoretical
tree will have 4 branches at the bottom, all spaces evenly around the tree.
The second set of branches will be about 1 foot higher and also spaced
evenly around the circumference of the tree. Because they are higher these
branches will naturally be shorter. Each set going up the tree will be
about 1 foot higher until you run out of tree. Bend them down by any means
you can. I use spreader sticks of various lenghts and materials. Weights
will work. There are even ground clips to tie branches to the ground.
Spreading only takes about 3 months and the devices can be removed.
I have Kingston Black which have done very well in zone 4. I have Ellis
Bitter that survived, but I haven't got much yet and I had Trembiltts Bitter
that didn't make even 1 winter.
Mark Parranto
Applewood Orchard in Minnesota
------------------------------
Subject: scionwood of/ for cider and perry varieties
From: verlindetaal <djtaal@planet.nl>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:19:34 +0100
Being a novice in cider and perry with a taste for dry and pure i am
looking for old and or quality cider and perry varieties.
So it's great to have found the Ciderdigest, thank's you all !
In holland there is no cider culture.
We have started making cider after we bought a specific swiss apple juicer
and started tasting the juice.
Being a little monomanic i 've collected a few hundred apple varieties
in the past 25 years so it was quite an experience.
Some varieties scored high as juicers by distance: the cooking apples
while i just was thinking of deleting some from the collection.
We made our first (hard)cider in 2004, no yeast culture, it was good
because we like dry and tart.
This year we are already drinking a 'single' Ribston hard cider and have
bottled a perry.
Allready i have gathered scionwood from swiss 'most' apples and pears and
made contact with normandie and bretagne 'cidrologues'.
I am looking for people who want to swap scionwood of juice, cider and
perry varieties.
Dirk Taal
Westeremderweg 1
9919TH Loppersum
Holland
------------------------------
Subject: Tree Pruning
From: Dl140@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:07:12 EST
I agree with David about spreading trees with clothespins or string and
brick, but sometimes the angle is too narrow between the side limb and the
central leader. Once a side limb becomes as big or almost as big as the
central leader it is tough to slow it down. Even spreading can have a
limited effect on this type of limb. If you try to spread these limbs too
far they can break off. If you are set on growing central leader trees,try
this. Any side limbs that you don't feel can be spread, cut them off at a
45 degree angle to the central leader. This will leave a wedge shaped piece
of the branch sticking out from the central leader. It is not 100% but most
times a new leader will start and will grow at the proper angle from there.
Another option is to cut out the central leader and allow three or four side
limbs to make an open center tree. This can work just as well.
Hope this helps.
Daryl Harnden
Cashmere, Wa
------------------------------
Subject: Re: slow fermentation temperatures
From: Terry Bradshaw <terryb@lostmeadowvt.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 14:35:25 -0500
My cold room will go down to 32 or so if I crack the window in the dead
of winter, and maintains about 45-50 with the window shut. The
temperature profile works out well for cider ferments; it starts around
55-60 in October, drops to 50 ish in November, given cold nights and an
open window. I can do my initial ferment (primary or keeve) outside
from the end of October into mid-late November, then siphon through the
window into the cooled room where I cam manage the ferment in the 40's
for the rest of the winter. By May-June we're going back up into thew
50's and in the heat of August the room MAY hit 60, which is good for
storage. The slight warmup in spring is conducive to MLF and finishing
off any really slow ferments. So I guess the answer to your question is
maybe 42-52 degrees F.
I plan on posting more info on my cider room in the next few days. The
likely url would be http://www.lostmeadowvt.com/cider/room.html
Terry B
>Subject: slow fermentation temperatures
>From: Seth Jones
>Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:29:32 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>
>I'm wondering if some of the members could share their optimum temperatures
>for slow ferments. I think my batch this year was way too warm and dryed
>out in about six weeks. I know there are other factors involved in ferment
>time but am looking for a good guideline.
>Thanks and cheers
>Seth Jones
================
Terence Bradshaw
Calais, VT
terryb@lostmeadowvt.com
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com
http://lostmeadowvt.blogspot.com
1450 feet, zone 4A/B?
The views represented are mine and mine only........
------------------------------
Subject: Anyone using a "heat pipe" to cool fermenter? How about a peltier
From: Bill Velek <billvelek@alltel.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:05:05 -0600
I've been kicking an idea around for awhile and did a google-search but
couldn't find anything directly on point. A recent post about peltier
devices made me think about this again. What about coupling a peltier
with a heatpipe?
For those who don't know, a 'heat pipe' is a very simple device with no
moving parts and requiring no power, but which helps transfer heat from
one place to another. In its simplest form, it would be a length of
straight copper pipe sealed at both ends, partially filled with alcohol
or freon or some other liquid to act as a refrigerant. To cool a
carboy, it would be inserted into the neck of the carboy and extend from
the bottom and protrude through the neck for some distance -- perhaps a
foot (30cm) or a bit more. The liquid refrigerant (alcohol, freon, or
whatever) pools at the bottom of the pipe, picks up heat from the
fermenting wort which causes some of the refrigerant to evaporate and
rise to the top (into the part of pipe extending outside the carboy)
where it condenses, releasing heat to the upper part of the pipe where
it is dissipated into the air, and the condensed refrigerant runs back
down the pipe into the lower portion within the carboy to repeat. The
cycle is continuous so long as there is a temperature differential,
helping move heat from the inside to the outside of the carboy. The
thinnest gauge copper would be used to improve conductivity, and even
convoluted pipe could be used to increase surface area and efficiency.
By itself, I'm not sure a heatpipe would help very much because it can't
cool below ambient temperature, and I can do better than that with a fan
and evaporative cooling. But heatpipe performance should be improved
immensely by adding a peltier device to the top portion of the pipe, and
I think it would probably lower temps more than evaporative cooling,
based on my readings. For those who don't know, a peltier device uses
solid state electronics and a flow of direct current to move heat from
one side to the other; an example is those ice chests which can be
plugged into a car's cigarette lighter socket. Coupling a peltier to a
heatpipe would also solve a couple of problems for people who want to
use a peltier with a carboy: first, it solves the problem of how to
connect to the carboy; second, it reaches to the center of the wort
which is hardest to cool; third, because it runs up the center,
convective currents should be uniformly distributed within the fermenter
for greater efficiency and uniformity of temperature. The pipe would be
easy to sanitize and since it isn't permanently mounted, the whole thing
could easily be moved to other fermenters such as a bucket or a conical,
if they have a sufficient opening in their lids. A thermostatic
coupling for the peltier could run along the side of the pipe, thereby
measuring temp at the center of the fermenter to regulate the peltier.
There are some downsides, but nothing significant in my mind. First,
you won't be able to use a Burton Union on your carboy, but I don't know
anyone who does anyway, even though they are available. Second, you
won't be able to use a blow off tube or a conventional airlock. How bad
is that? Well, if properly designed, the heatpipe should act as an
airlock itself. If the pipe has a flange or is widened at the point
where it enters the fermenter so that the weight of the pipe rests on a
sanitized rubber gasket between it and the lid or carboy neck, I think
it will provide a sufficient seal. Pressure inside the fermenter would
merely lift the entire pipe and peltier device just enough to release
CO2, and whenever it vents in that way, the positive pressure inside the
fermenter should prevent oxygen and contaminants from entering.
Would that create too much pressure inside the fermenter, risking an
explosion of the carboy? Most of the weight of the portion of the pipe
which is submerged in wort would be offset by buoyancy; in fact,
depending upon the gauge of the pipe and how much it is filled with
refrigerant, that portion of the pipe might even have a positive
buoyancy. That leaves the portion of pipe extending above the level of
wort, plus the weight of the peltier, heat sink (if any), and fan. I've
tried to find some weight specifications to use as examples, but
unfortunately haven't found any yet. But some of these devices that are
available are mounted on CPUs inside computers, and don't look like they
could weigh much more than a pound -- but let's use 3 pounds (1.36kg) as
an example and as an upper limit of total negative buoyancy, i.e., the
weight on the gasket at the carboy neck or lid. The inside diameter of
the neck on my carboys is about one and an eighth inches (2.86cm), for a
surface area of .994 square inches (6.41 square cm) -- "close enough for
government work" to call one square inch. Assuming three pounds of
weight on that one square inch, it would require 3 psi to break the
seal, causing a pressure of 3psi throughout the carboy. I tried to
research whether that was too much or not, and couldn't find an answer;
I did find this thread -- http://tinyurl.com/fvned -- which was
inconclusive. But assuming that 3psi is not too much, the pipe and
peltier should cause a good seal. Now, another bad downside with not
being able to use a blow off tube is that, with a really vigorous
fermentation, each time the seal is momentarily broken to vent pressure,
we're likely to have some kraeusen squirt out; this can at least be
deflected downward by adding to the heatpipe a small sleeve which
overhangs the neck of the carboy, but then we would still have a mess
with kraeusen running down the sides of the carboy -- although it could
be set inside a small pan or tub to minimize the mess. However, if the
heatpipe and peltier are successful in holding the temp of the wort down
to a nice low temp of, let's say, 64F/18C, will fermentations really be
that vigorous? I don't know because I've never been able to ferment
that low; I've had some pretty violent fermentations, but I've seldom
been able to keep my temp down below 70F/21C. With lower temps,
fermentations will be slower, but I don't know how slow.
This is just some thinking on my part; I've never attempted any of this
and don't know if it would work or not. Seems to me like it would, and
I'd love for some of the more knowledgeable engineering types here to
comment on this. If anyone thinks they can make this work and market
it, you have my permission; just send me a 'beta' unit to try out. ;-)
Also, if anyone tries this, please let me know how it works out. I
might give it a try myself, but I'll need to find out a lot more about
how to make the heat pipe -- how much liquid to put in it, etc. But
there's no sense in even trying if calculations say it won't work.
I'm posting this to a lot of forums to try to get as many responses as
possible. Also, I'm sorry this is so long; I hope you folks don't mind.
Thanks.
Cheers, Bill Velek
Join "HomeBrewers" international grid-computing team and help mankind by
donating spare computer power for medical research such as cancer; we're
in the top 8%, and we beat the MillerTime team: http://tinyurl.com/b7ofs
The life that your computer can help save ... might be someone you love.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1302
*************************
