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Cider Digest #1261
Subject: Cider Digest #1261, 23 September 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1261 23 September 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Bottle Pasteurisation ("Gary Awdey")
Re: counter-pressure bottle filler (Benjamin Watson)
Re: Cider Digest #1260, 21 September 2005 (Steury & Noel)
European cider varieties (Benjamin Watson)
Subject: Fauxwhelp ("Dyer, Jonathan A.")
Malolactic fermentation (Bradley Hunter)
Fauxwhelp (Derek Bisset)
Re: Cider Digest #1260, 21 September 2005 (Bill Rhyne)
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Subject: Re: Bottle Pasteurisation
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 06:01:08 -0400
In CD#1260 Stuart Grant wrote:
> ...The method I've read about is to bottle (in my case, in heavy
> champagne-style bottles), allow to carbonate to ~2 vol. CO2 (lowish
> carbonation), then place the bottles in a saucepan full of water and heat
> to 75C for 30min. Leaving one of the bottles uncapped with a thermometer in
> it will most easily gauge the temperature inside the bottles.
>
> Is this dangerous given that I will pre-carbonate? Is there a better
> method? What else should I think about?
If you look in CD# 1017 (January 2003) in the archives of the Cider Digest,
Bill Rhyne gives a nice description of a bottle pasturization technique he
developed by trial and error. You'll probably want to read the full
description but the gist of it is that it is done in a capped bottle at 150
degrees F (about 65 degrees C) for 10-20 minutes. You'll find the link to
the archives at http://www.talisman.com/cider/#Archives.
As I understand it, the time-temperature combination needed to stabilize
your cider will depend on microbial load. A brilliantly clear cider without
sediment typically needs far fewer pasturization units than a cloudy or
heavily sedimented one.
I used portions of Bill's technique last year for stabilizing a sweeter
unkeeved cider that had gotten overpressurized in the bottle (These are
sometimes called "gushers" here, as I found out when one of my entries in
the Boston Homebrew Competition fit that description). To remediate for the
next competition the remaining overpressurized bottles were opened very
slowly, letting a bit of gas escape at a time, to avoid disturbing sediment
with rising gas bubbles. Then the cider was poured to smaller bottles (or
separate bottles were combined into new bottles, e.g. five bottles filled
four new bottles of comparable size, with some sediment left over). Since
this was an attempt to save a fairly small amount of an otherwise nice cider
for a competition so I took the trouble to pour under an argon gas shroud to
avoid aeration. This was done in a cold room (around 2 degrees C), and the
new bottles were capped while still fully sparkling. SG was around 1.02.
Then I followed immediately with the water bath portion of Bill's technique
while I knew that the cider was still saturated with a lot of CO2 (it holds
a lot more in solution at low temperature so temperature while the bottles
were opened was critical). The pasturization worked well, though I confess
to being a bit nervous while doing it because the bottles weren't as heavy
as recommended (and I was careful to limit exposure to the potential spray
of glass and scalding water as much as possible). When the bottles that I
saved for myself were opened later at a somewhat higher temperature the
bottles produced a nice hiss and were lightly sparkling or heavily petillant
(I'm not sure where you draw the line between the two).
Gary Awdey
Eden, New York
------------------------------
Subject: Re: counter-pressure bottle filler
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:14:00 -0400
Dave Halliday asked about the counter-pressure bottle filler that I
reported on seeing at Bellwether Hard Cider last weekend. I've also had
one or two similar questions about the company off-list.
I wish I'd taken better notes on the machine and anticipated the
interest on this list. I myself just make small batches of cider in
carboys, and am not a commercial cidermaker, so my own fascination with
such technology is quite limited.
However, I'm sure that Bill Barton at Bellwether can answer any
questions anyone might have, or provide the contact information for the
company in California that manufactures the bottle filler. Bill's email
address is info@cidery.com. He mentioned that the company is working on
smaller-scale bottling units.
As big and expensive as Bill's bottler was, I noticed that it had only
accommodated three bottles at a time, which seems very typical of the
machines I've seen -- but makes me wonder how much faster or more
efficient it is compared to other counter-pressure fillers.
The only other bottling machine I'm familiar with is the one Steve Wood
uses up at Farnum Hill Cider in Lebanon, NH -- he purchased a German
unit and had it rebuilt and shipped to the States. I also understand
that Vigo in the UK sells bottling machines.
Hope this helps,
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1260, 21 September 2005
From: Steury & Noel <steurynoel@mail.potlatch.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 06:25:55 -0700
re:Muscadet de Bernay
Tim Bray, it's not your memory that's at fault. In spite of the frequent
misspellings, there is no Muscat de Bernay. According to Bore and
Fleckinger's Pommiers a Cidre: Varieties de France, it's Muscadet de
Bernay. Like Muscadet de Dieppe. Muscat is a grape. Muscadet is the
wine. We have a couple in our orchard--which were sold to us as "muscat."
They do quite well here in Idaho.
Diane Noel, Tim Steury, and David Steury
1021 McBride Road
Potlatch, ID 83855 USA
208.875.0804
------------------------------
Subject: European cider varieties
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:35:27 -0400
Dear Cider Digesters,
I was up visiting Poverty Lane Orchards/Farnum Hill Ciders in Lebanon,
NH yesterday after work, and Steve Wood told me that he has a
remarkably heavy crop of European cider apple varieties this year --
more than he really needs for his own operation.
So he asked me to pass along the word that if you are in striking
distance of his orchard and would like to buy, say, a bin or two of
Chisel Jersey or Yarlington Mill, he's your man. He can also sell
several cider varieties in bushel quantities, and quoted me a price of
$18 a bushel. Bin quantities would obviously be less per bushel.
Since my friends and I only do a small, one-time press of 150-200
gallons, we don't need that much. I've used Yarlington Mill, Chisel
Jersey, False Major, Foxwhelp, Somerset Redstreak, Medaille d'Or,
Michelin, Ellis Bitter, Brown's Apple, and a variety of other cider
apples from Steve's orchard.
Anyway, for anyone who's interested, the phone number at Poverty Lane
Orchards is (603) 448-1511, and his email is swood@farnumhillciders.com.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Subject: Fauxwhelp
From: "Dyer, Jonathan A." <dyerja@health.missouri.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:12:22 -0500
Regarding the "fauxwhelp" cultivar - I too have fruited this variety and
believe it is not true to type. The bigger question is what "type" is
it. I'd always thought that is most resembled what is called the
"Bulmer's Foxwhelp" in the Bulmer's Pomona - medium sized to larger
fruit, skin with red stripes on a yellow background, shape rounded to
oblate. Mine ripened in September as well. I was not that impressed by
the qualities of the fruit but I've only had a few off the tree as of
yet. They were mild bittersharp at best. I've tried to differentiate
the "Broxwood Foxwhelp" from the "Bulmer's Foxwhelp", but it sounds like
they are quite similar and this may well be the cultivar we have in the
states.
The existence of multiple strains of Foxwhelp has been noted before and
I'd always figured we just had one of the substrains rather than the
original. Certainly the original is quite different based on Morgan and
Richards descriptions as well as that in the Herefordshire Pomona.
While I'm intrigued by the old text's descriptions of the characteristic
"Foxwhelp" aroma, only when the "true" old Foxwhelp has been fruited
here will we be able to decide if indeed that feature can be replicated
here.
I also wanted to echo Charles' comments - I grow many of these old
apples for fun and to see how they perform in my own little
microclimate. Those that don't work well will be topworked - those that
do will be utilized. However, I strongly believe that more aggressive
propagation of our own native "American" cider apples will provide the
most stable source for cider apples that are already adapted to the
particular stresses and diseases present in our climate. These
cultivars offer us the best chance at producing high quality cider from
apples grown with minimal intervention in terms of sprays or other
chemicals.
Jon Dyer
------------------------------
Subject: Malolactic fermentation
From: Bradley Hunter <hunter@midcoast.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:52:59 -0400
For years I've been assuming that I've probably had a naturally
occurring malolactic fermentation in my ciders. I tend to let them sit
on the lees in primary for quite a while and I thought that might
contribute to that happening.
This season the grape vines in my micro vineyard are coming of age and
with the expectation of pressing at least a couple of carboys of reds I
finally invested in a Chromatography test kit to test for completion of
malolactic ferment in the wine.
I bought Enoferm Alpha bacteria to add to my grape wine and , now that
I have the option, I'm wondering if it would be advisable to also add
it (after initial fermentation is all or nearly completed) to my high
acid ciders?
I know that in fruit forward white wines like Rieslings,
Gewurstraminers and Muscats a malolactic ferment is not appropriate
but I'm unclear as to whether 'all' ciders or just particularly high
acid ones would benefit from this treatment.
Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Brad
------------------------------
Subject: Fauxwhelp
From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@shaw.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:25:31 -0700
At this time last year when I visited the English West Country , five
acres of true Foxwhelp were being picked , smallish, very red and early
compared to other cider apples on the farm . All those I saw were being
shipped to Bulmer's factory in Hereford .
This was a very different apple from the very large yellow fruit with
slight red striping that I have here , also from the Mt Vernon
collection. It is dropping now along with Brown Snout and about half
the Kingston Black and Marechal . Muscadet de Dieppe is already off as
are most of the Michelins .Dabinett and Yarlington Mill will be dropping
by the end of the month .
When I mentioned our Fauxwhelp experience to Mike Johnson of Broome Farm
who was machine harvestng the five acres of Foxwhelp , he suggested I
walk along a row of trees which had several old Foxwhelp grafted on
interstem and look for trees which had the interstem send up branches to
overtake the grafted Foxwhelp. Some of these shoots were bearing fruit .
It occurred to him that a common grafting error involves taking scion
wood from this type of overgrowth thinking it is the true variety
.Unfortunately he didn't know what interstem had been used in his
father's time and though the fruit was large and greenish it was not
really like our Fauxwhelp.
I think Bulmer's Norman was once recomended as rootstock/interstem and
Mike's theory might then point to our apple as being Bulmer's Norman
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1260, 21 September 2005
From: Bill Rhyne <bill_rhyne@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:36:57 -0700 (PDT)
RE: Bottle pasteurization
The Grant Family <grants@netspace.net.au>
> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:05:04 +1000
> Is this dangerous given that I will pre-carbonate?
It can be. The bottles though are typically sitting in
water up to the fill level in the neck of the bottle
so any glass from exploding bottles will stay in the
water. Also, a plastic tarp with an insulation blanket
on top of the bath will conserve heat and provide any
protection should there be an explosion. The other
caution is to cool the bottles slowly to minimize
exploding. Don't put them on cold counters or spray
with cold water immediately after the hot bath. Also,
the temperature should not to hot. We had success with
temperatures closer to 60-65 degrees C. Most yeast die
at 60 degrees C and that is the goal of this type of
pasteurization to stop in the bottle fermentation. You
don't want to "cook" the cider. We would experience
breakage around 1-2 bottles for every 1000 bottles
pasteurized. This requires practice though. Some
explosions were due to the fact that our blending
before bottling was not even and our lack of
temperature controlled storage caused uneven bottle
fermentation. With each iteration, our technique
improved and the results showed it.
> Is there a better method? Irradiation, but I don't
think that it would go over well with the organic
crowd. Also, you need to find someone that offers that
service.
What else should I think about? The decision when to
pasteurize can be tricky based on your own technique,
your cider characteristics, and your storage
constraints. Once the cider starts fermenting in the
bottle, you only have a small window of time before it
goes all the way dry and oversparkling. So you need to
be ready to schedule the pasteurization. Or cool the
cider down to slow the fermenting.
For Rhyne Cyder's pasteurization, we learned by doing
and making mistakes and the final result was something
like a jacuzzi or hot tub setup. We had a custom made
stainless steel pan with a false bottom, two opposing
inports for hot water and one port for drain the pan
back to the pump which fed the water back to the
portable hot water heater which reheated the water and
sent it back to the pan. This method conserved water
and heat and gave us more control over the process and
more consistent results. This setup might cost $5-10
thousand dollars to duplicate but it was cheaper than
the 7 stage tunnel pasteurizers that the beer
companies use. Also, our system is easy to move around
as we designed the pan to fit in the back of our Ford
pickup.
I hope that this helps. Good luck!
Bill Rhyne
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1261
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