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Cider Digest #1290
Subject: Cider Digest #1290, 9 January 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1290 9 January 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Too early to transfer? (Bradley Hunter)
Re: Cider Competitions (John Ross)
RE: Carbonation ("McGonegal, Charles")
All GLOWS All the Time ("McGonegal, Charles")
Cider ingredients (GLOWS related) ("McGonegal, Charles")
GLOWS 2005 competition (Benjamin Watson)
apples in bottles ("Julian Temperley")
New Sanctioned Competition Program (Ed Westemeier)
carbonation ("Diane Gagnon")
re: cider brandy (runspamrun@aol.com)
FW: Glows Discussion ("Mike Beck")
Carbonation (Mike Johnson)
Too early to transfer? (Bradley Hunter)
Re: 2005 Glows Competition (dubious entries?) (Dick Dunn)
Re: Picking out macro-cider blind (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Too early to transfer?
From: Bradley Hunter <hunter@midcoast.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 13:46:29 -0500
This fall I pressed about 45 gal. of a nice mix of local apples
containing lots of Golden Russet, Baldwin,Tolman Sweet, Spy, Belle de
Boskoop and other small amounts of high tannin crabs.
I froze about 15 gal. of sweet cider and split the remainder into 6
food grade plastic fermenters. Into four of those I pitched a Cotes des
Blanc (Epernay II) rehydrated dry yeast and the remaining two got
Lalvin D-47 yeast. All got yeast nutrient and all were well aerated
with a filtered air pump system and all got going quickly.
O.G. was 1.054 which I adjusted up with sugars to 1.088.
Now, 6 weeks later, I get a hydrometer reading of .996 in all 6
fermenters.
It is dropping out quite clear without any fining agents.
My plan is to rack out of these 6 fermenters into a 10 gal. oak cask ,
which I use exclusively for ciders and into a 15.5 gal. half barrel SS
keg for bulk aging. Any remaining goes into several 1 gal. glass jugs
to be used for topping off and progress sampling!
At only 6 weeks am I being overly anxious to get these out of primary?
Despite the complete gravity drop will they benefit from sitting on the
lees to encourage MLF? Any other benefits?
If I let them stay in primary, how much longer is recommended?
Thanks for any advice,
Brad
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Competitions
From: John Ross <johnross@halcyon.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:38:34 -0800
Charles McGonegal wrote:
>I wonder if it would be beneficial to put an Expo
>in front of key cider competitions? At the minimum, judges (and the
>public) could have a chance to try many ciders - including ones they
>don't see on the shelves in their areas or taste in competitions.
Scheduling a Cider Expo or some such similar event is a fine idea.
However, when Northwest Cider Society organized the first two North
American Cider Competitions for (disclaimer: I am speaking for myself
in this message, not as an officer of NWCS), we came up against the
complications involved in planning and running both a competition and
a larger public event on the same day -- we just didn't have the
resources (people and time) to do both. There's a lot of advance
planning and on-the-day support needed for both events, so ideally
the two events should be run by separate staff and/or volunteer
committees. As we grow and evolve, maybe we will be able to do that
around future competitions.
We did schedule "Awards dinners" following the judging, announced
through our e-mail list and to interested journalists, where the
winning ciders were served before and during the meal. So there was
an opportunity for "the public" to meet the judges and many of the
cider makers, and sample many ciders not normally available in this area.
But of course, that doesn't directly address what I understand to be
Charles' point about allowing judges to sample a range of
ciders >before< the formal judging, in order to make it clear that
"good" cider can exist at any point along a spectrum of sweet to dry
(and along some other spectra as well). Maybe we have to look for (or
develop) judges with more experience and knowledge of European and
American cider styles; just as the "peoples' choice" awards at beer
festivals are often wildly different from the results of controlled
tastings by qualified beer judges, we can expect different results
from judges with more sophisticated "cider palates."
John Ross
Seattle
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Carbonation
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:00:56 -0600
Don Davenport asks: I'd love to know what the experts think. Ideas?
While I won't accept the 'ex-spurt' hat, I'll put in my two bits as a
'commercial practitioner'.
Re-pitch with fresh yeast when setting up your tirage. IMNSHO.
I don't run quite as lont a time frame as Claude Jolicoeur mentions, but
I set my champagne-methode cider to tirage at about 4 months after start
of fermentation, and disgorge at anywhere from 5 months to 2-3 years in
the bottle. I think he's right - give your cider some time.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
Wassail!!
------------------------------
Subject: All GLOWS All the Time
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:41:30 -0600
Dick Dunn writes: "... I think if this is the best we can do on cider
competition, I'm going to have to side with some of the east-coast
cidermakers who think we are nowhere near ready for serious cider
competitions in the US! A competition MUST be able to distinguish
between a real cider and a glucose wine before the results can be taken
seriously."
A number of both new and old Cider Digest participants served as judges
for the GLOWS competition, and the organizers knew quite well that they
were going to be under a lot of scrutiny by the cider community. I know
- - I told them so myself. The organizers may have their roots in the
craft beer community, but they were/are not operating in a vacuum. As a
participant, it seemed to go quite smoothly. We all did our best. It
is possible, maybe even likely, that we (and I include myself) were
ignorant and under-experienced, for all our keen interest and earnest
effort.
<soapbox/>
This is not a new discussion for the CD. Competitions are not easy
events. But they _will_ happen, whether we (the community of craft
cider producers, advocates and consumers) sponsor/endorse them or not.
If we don't like the results from folks we deem outsiders or uneducated
- - then it strikes me that we must get involved and stay involved, so to
bring them into the community and educate them.
</soapbox>
Educating ourselves is a good start. So how do we do that, and then
widen the circle to 1) the already interested pool of cider fans that
judging pools are drawn from, 2) and then wider consumer markets.
I do have a couple questions about Dick's statements:
1) There are a few east US coast cider producers who are conspicuously
absent from cider competitions, year in and out. Are they, like many
small vintners I know, simply skeptical of the utility of competitions
in marketing? Or are they truly disparaging of our own ability to
fairly judge ourselves?
<aside/> Most competitions include 'improve commercial practice and
quality through feedback' in their goals. A worthy goal, but
exceptionally rarely achieved. So I'm talking about competitions as a
marketing platform, mostly </aside>
2) Are UK competitions _actually_ able to discern engineer macro-cider
from authentic/craft cider? Or are they better at rigging entry
requirements and screening entrants so as to avoid the problem? I'm
really curious as this. I seem to recall some discussion just a couple
years ago that would suggest they still have problems when macro-ciders
sneek in. Do they deserve Pedestal status?
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery
Wassail!
------------------------------
Subject: Cider ingredients (GLOWS related)
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:46:13 -0600
Terry Maloney suggests: "It may seem unduly restrictive, but it might
help solve the problem if Serious Cider Competitions were to require
their commercial entries to be made from apples. Period."
Is there anything 'Period' this side of the grave?
Processing aids?
microbial stability: sulfite, sorbate, dimethyldicarbonate
clarity: any fining agents
pectin manipluation : assorted enzymatic activities, Ca2+ sources
One might argue that most 'processing materials' enter the cider, and
then leave (or are filtered out) again - but they leave lasting effects.
Backsweetening? Flavored adjuncts get their own category(ies) in BJCP
guidelines - but what about 'neutral' sugar for sweetening (or priming).
Or non-fresh apple sources. We disparage all-concentrate derived cider,
but what about concentrated/boiled/pasteurized/cryoconcentrated juice
used for sweetening (or priming) rather than fermentation?
For that matter, let's throw in:
Must intestification? evaporative, reverse osmosis, chaptalization,
concentrate addition, cryoconcentration (natural and refrigeration)
Tannin manipulations: quercus or sorbus tannins? New oak cooperage?
Non-cider oak cooperage? Micro-oxygenation?
I publicly admire minimalist 'country cider', but I will admit, I don't
make (much of)it. My market isn't looking for it. Nearly all of the
operations above were seen in one entry or another in the GLOWS
competiton, if you include the non-commercial division. I'm reluctant
to leave it out; and have stopped calling it 'amateur' - those folks
want to make serious and high quality cider, too. The only common
practices I can easily limit from cider are 'Amelioration/dilution' and
'Fortification.' Alas for my poor pommeau.
I think we can agree that we want to exclude things like 'K' - that have
'30% juice' right on the label. But somewhere in the 85-95% range
(especially after sweetening) I think the line gets awful blurry. The
GLOWS competition was deliberately inclusive - hence all the beer and
mead categories. I will continue to argue for inclusivity.
The US regs for fruit wines (what you fall under when the product goes
over 7% ABV) consider concentrate returned to its original Brix 'juice',
allow chaptalization up to 14% ABV with solid sugar without dilution
penalty and tracks water additions burdensomely. [The grape wine regs
count chaptalization as dilution, by the way] Water in sugar syrup
always counts as dilution - grape or non-grape. Adding flavors or
adjucts that are not on a short list of approved processing materials
lands you with the requirement of getting a formula approved (but the
TTB won't tell me what, if anything, would disqualify a proposed
formula) and a 'other than standard' designation on the label. And the
labelling related regs apply to imports as well as domestic production,
as far as I can tell. Alas, we have no national guidance of even that
clarity (or obscurity) for products under 7% ABV.
The BJCP guidelines have a category for modestly chaptalized ciders -
the 'applewine' category. With water dilution excluded as bad, the
alcohol would give some indication of chaptalization. Imperfectly - my
small batch ciders that are 'apple period' have a higher ABV than my
chaptalized sparkling 'apple wine'. My own areas of interest/concern
lie in water addition, flavored adjuncts or cooperage and 'must
intensification'. I don't think that questionable practices
_necessarily_ result in obvious characters in the resulting 'cider' - so
it behooves a competition to exclude those types of products.
Dick D. has noted that the most problematic entries in GLOWS should have
been excluded bu its own guidelines.
But how are the organizers to know -for sure-? Keep a 'black list'? Lab
testing?
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery
Wassail!
------------------------------
Subject: GLOWS 2005 competition
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:32:46 -0500
Regarding the current debate about the process and legitimacy of the
GLOWS competition, I have to echo the comments that appeared in the
last edition of the Cider Digest.
I don't at all want to seem to be "piling on" here -- the idea of
mounting competitions to promote cider is a noble one, but as we are
seeing in this event, it is very much an experiment that is still in
process. I have been an advocate for American artisan (craft) ciders
for several years now, and have seen a lot of positive (albeit slow
and steady) progress in the field over that period. There is
definitely greater interest in good cider, and more knowledge among a
certain small but growing subset of cider makers, drinkers, and
enthusiasts. The stuff that is being made out there is good, and
getting better, both on the commercial and non-commercial levels. So
there is much to celebrate as we head into 2006.
The question that I (and some of those cranky, independent East Coast
producers) have is, what is the ultimate purpose of these
competitions? I believe that we, as a group of opinion leaders, need
to define their function before such events will ever be very
meaningful.
The furor over Strongbow and Woodpecker winning awards reminds me of
the row that occurred when Boston Beer Co. (aka Hard Core) won an
award over in England. But the cases are very different, in my
opinion. BBC consciously went out and selected actual apples to press
from Poverty Lane Orchards in New Hampshire. Then they had Alan
Tringham (former head cidermaker at Bulmer) do several batches. I
sampled two or three different batches in the experimental stage.
My point is that BBC was honestly trying to make something akin to
Real Cider, not alcopop. They only kegged a limited amount, and it
only was sold to Boston area bars, but the point is, they made a good
product from real juice, not concentrate.
If Bulmer were to make a special batch and submit it to GLOWS or NWCS
competitions, I wouldn't care in the least, because that would be a
recognition (by them) that they can make a better, more artisanal
product than their usual mass-produced plonk. Imitation is the
sincerest form of flattery. But Bulmer is no more "English cider" than
I am like a meridian of longitude -- both Woodpecker and Strongbow
should have been entered in the Common Cider category along with
Woodchuck Dark'n'Dry and Wyder's Dry Apple Cider and left to fight
amongst themselves instead of pitting them against legitimate
English-style craft ciders like Westcott Bay Vintage Cider, which I
think got short shrift in this competition.
I feel Richard Anderson's pain, because I also submitted my
English-style still cider in the noncommercial category at GLOWS. And
if what the judges were looking for was something like Strongbow or
Woodpecker, I had no chance. My 2004 cider (like it or hate it) was
quite still, very dry, and austere, with a bit of fruit and plenty of
soft tannins. The comments I received from judges were somewhat
relevant and helpful, but it makes me wonder what kinds of cider my
stuff was up against (and whether they were really, truly English
style) and how that affected the judging. And I did read through the
submission guidelines and style descriptions very carefully before I
characterized my own cider -- and have tasted enough that I trust my
own judgment.
In any case, this definitely isn't a case of sour grapes -- on Rich
Anderson's part or mine. I make what I like to drink myself from the
fruit I can source. I simply sent in a couple of entries for fun, to
support GLOWS, and out of curiosity as I prepare the next edition of
my Cider book. But there's one general observation that keeps rising
to the surface as I contemplate these competitions, their positive
contributions and their limitations:
CIDER IS NOT BEER! It is not a brewed or grain-fermented product! And
though I applaud the BJCP for taking the bull by the horns and trying
to define different categories of cider, I really get annoyed by cider
(both in this country and the UK) being treated like a subcategory of
beer. Even the cover page for the scoresheets at GLOWS explains
overall scores by saying ("This beer . . .). It frustrates the hell
out of me.
Until we get beyond this mindset, we are never going to be able to
promote and celebrate cider for what it truly is -- if anything it is
a subcategory of wine, not beer. And craft cider, often made by the
people who are growing their own fruit, is more akin to small estate
wines than anything else. You can buy a glass of Pinot Grigio or
Cabernet Sauvignon in a bar that serves beer, too -- but BJCP isn't
trying to create a category for them under their aegis. What's the
difference, except the kind of fruit used? I guess I agree with Terry
that the only way to hold a meaningful cider tasting is to eliminate
all of the apple- and pear-flavored beers and meads and focus on Real
Cider, pure and simple and unadulterated and made from 100 percent
pressed juice with few if any adjuncts. Otherwise it's unclear what we
mean by "cider" -- and if WE are confused, then it's certain that no
one else (press, public, etc.) will understand what the hell we mean,
either.
I'll shut up now, but I have to say that the greatest contribution
GLOWS has made is to stimulate this kind of discussion. I remain
skeptical that we truly have enough knowledge of cider styles (both
domestic and international) to hold a meaningful competition. In my
view, it is far more beneficial and significant to expose as many
people as possible to good regional ciders than to hand out medals
amongst ourselves. I think Dick's idea of a public event connected
with these competitions -- such as the Cider Salon at Cider Day (for
an open tasting) or, even better, a focused tasting of 5-6 ciders of
different styles, as Slow Food does in its "Taste Workshops" in Italy
- -- is one that's worth pursuing. As the person mainly responsible for
rustling ciders for the Cider Salon at Cider Day I can say that's it's
a time-consuming process, but ultimately worthwhile, if you can
assemble a wide range of ciders from different regions and producers.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: apples in bottles
From: "Julian Temperley" <somcb@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:19:31 -0000
I have no experience of growing pears in a bottle, but we do grow
apples in bottles, as does Christian Drouin , the famous Calvados maker.
When we add apple brandy the apples slowly go brown and float
looking a bit like a turd. After they sink they look good. See
www.ciderbrandy.co.uk Pears don't discolour the same way, but I see
from Kris Berglands book on distilling that by using vitamin C the
browning can be stopped. I think that we may try this way this year.
Julian Temperley
------------------------------
Subject: New Sanctioned Competition Program
From: Ed Westemeier <hopfen@malz.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 07:37:40 -0500
The AHA and BJCP are pleased to announce that we have combined our
competition registration programs, effective January 6, 2006.
The new AHA/BJCP Sanctioned Competition Program (SCP) is a joint
project initiated by the BJCP Board and the AHA Governing Committee,
and will be the single source for all competition materials.
Registration with the SCP will automatically get your competition on
the website calendars of both beertown.org and bjcp.org, as well as
publication in Zymurgy magazine (if you register with enough lead time).
For full details, please see the official notice at www.bjcp.org/
scp.html.
Ed Westemeier
BJCP Communication Director
communication_director@bjcp.org
------------------------------
Subject: carbonation
From: "Diane Gagnon" <gagnond@endirect.qc.ca>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 17:59:22 -0500
champagne yeast is a strong reliable fermenter
Second fermentation in a warm area (27C 14 days)
Priming before two months after first fermentation completion
Effervescence will increase proportionnally with resting time (up to 6
months)
This procedure never failed for me in a 10 years practice
D. Gagnon
------------------------------
Subject: re: cider brandy
From: runspamrun@aol.com
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 19:28:50 -0500
Warwick from Down Under wrote:
"...does anyone from the digest have any experience of growing pears in
bottles a la Poire William, how do they do it and does it work for
apples?"
I have been growing pears in bottles for the last couple years for
a small distillery here in Connecticut; Westford Hill Distillers
(www.westfordhill.com). Basically it involves hanging glass bottles over
the growing pears in early summer. The pears grow to size in the bottles
and they are harvested in late August/early September. A few points i have
learned... Make sure the bottle is completely upside down: Water is going
to condense and needs a place to run out. Electrical tape is your friend:
its ugly, but allows the tree branch to grow and is faster than tying knots.
Wait as long as you can before you place the pear in the bottle: i start
when the developing pear is about the size of my pinky. This only gives
a few days before the pears are too big, but it really increases take.
Shade, Shade, Shade: Hot summer days really limit fruit sizing and account
for most of my losses. If you are only doing a few bottles, i would wrap
them in tissue paper or row cover as soon as the summer starts to heat up.
Keep on top of your pest and diseases: Psylla, in particular, can creep
up on you and result in sooty mold that ruins bottles quickly.
I have done peaches and apples as well. The trick still works, but nether
have the "wow" effect like the pears. I hope that helps,
Russell Holmberg
Holmberg Orchards
Gales Ferry, CT
------------------------------
Subject: FW: Glows Discussion
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 22:43:50 -0500
Digesters,
I want give an opinion on the recent GLOWS discussion from the point of view
of a 5th generation orchardist and cider maker. This is my only source of
income, not a second job. Cider making for me is about farm sustainability.
I must agree Charles McGeonagal on many points.
-Award structure allows for only 123 - Almost all wine competitions give
many gold, silver, bronze.
-Probably needs more style categories than given. (although many categories
left unentered)
-Judging Education needs to take place on some level.
-It is difficult to pick out some of the big brands out of a crowd.
Especially when they are rapid fired at you.
A commercial cidery operates under TTB rules, regulation & taxation. If you
want to sell cider you must get a federal wine license and most likely one
from your state. While wineries are separated by size for tax purposes
there are no distinctions when it comes to what they can use for ingredients
and adjuvant. Green Mountain Beverage can use the exact same ingredient that
"Small Cidery X" can and vice versa. There is no clout for cider at TTB.
You may not use vintage dating, varietal labeling or appellation designation
for cider. Cider has no clout at the educational and extension level. Very
little research has taken place on cider apple cultivation/production and
marketing. The latter has been more significant lately.
The marketing dollars that some states apple programs have (WA,MI,NY,PA,CA)
devote little or no effort in to the marketing of cider(fermented).
To compound these problems, cider has no sense of place on the retail market
shelf. To go further, if Americans actually had a desire for authentic
European cider we would not have the production to match. We (all growers)
are no where close to having enough of those trees in the ground. I would
happily give premium prices to growers for cider apples. Not many are
willing to take the risk with the lack of education out there. I certainly
will be very slow to plant cider varieties. I can make fine cider with
Jonathan, Spy's, Winesaps, Cortland, Goldens, Mac's etc. As far as the
market for a traditional dry cider, Gary Awdey said it best, we are in the
infancy stages of developing that market. I can personally tell you now
that I have had over 200,000 people through our tasting room that people
talk dry and buy sweet. Every time I add a little extra back sweetness to a
batch of cider it always sells better. I have no problem doing this, I have
bank loans that need to be paid off & it keeps my customers happy. I have
pretty much given up the thought of selling a cider that represents a
European cider. I will save that for my personal use cider.
I must disagree with Dick Dunn on a few points. (at the risk of offending
the janitor)
-Competitions can have an excellent benefit for marketing.
-The GLOWS competition was well run.
-The judges were certified and were very professional about the task at
hand. (I know, I was there)
Competitions are far and few for the commercial cider maker. Competitions
get the attention of food and wine writers. It has certainly helped out the
Boston Beer Companies of the world. Competition let us gauge ourselves
against the rest. The cream will rise to the top. This competition was a
huge undertaking it had respect for all aspects of the fermented apple
beverage industry. Competition organizers would happily fine tune the
categories to meet the needs of the cider industry. However, I would never
want exclude anyone big or small from a competition. That would never be
fair. The reality is we will have to begrudgingly embrace the entire cider
industry. It is no different than the other alcohol bev. industries: wine,
beer, spirits. Big and small have to develop the market and should never
disparage each other in the process. Tim Bray states "Only winners draw
attention to the results so there was little to have been lost", I think
that takes away from the people that did well. Regardless, if that is true
it is also true, conversely, that the losers always cry about it.
Happy Cidering
Mike Beck
------------------------------
Subject: Carbonation
From: Mike Johnson <tomijon@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 19:45:40 -0800 (PST)
Thank you everyone for all the feedback. Following are the specifics of
my cider batches:
#1...Pressed 3 gals Dec. '04, beginning SG 1.044, bottled Feb '05 w/
1/2 cup cane sugar boiled in water, FG 1.002. I added three campden
tablets when I racked to a secondary which I suspect may be my problem.
I sampled this batch frequently after the first month with the last one
sampled last week. Some were stored primarily in a cool basement, others
in the warmth of the house. In any event, I always warmed bottles a few
weeks prior to sampling. None of the bottles carbonated. Regardless of
when I bottled this batch, I think it should have carbonated by now.
#2...Pressed 5 gals Sept '05 (mead yeast), beginning SG 1.042, bottled
November '05 w/ 3/4 Cup cane sugar boiled in water, FG .992. I sampled
in December but it had not carbonated. Based on the responses, I'll put
this away for another 6 + months and see what happens.
#3...Pressed 5 gals Sept '05 (champagne yeast), beginning SG 1.042, bottled
December '05 w/ 3/4 Cup priming sugar, FG .992. This batch also has not
yet carbonated.
#4...Pressed 5 gals Nov. '05 (cider yeast), beginning SG 1.048. This batch
is still in the carboy.
Any further comments are greatly appreciated. I love the flavor of these
batches but I need some bubbles. Thanks, MIke
------------------------------
Subject: Too early to transfer?
From: Bradley Hunter <hunter@midcoast.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 13:46:29 -0500
This fall I pressed about 45 gal. of a nice mix of local apples
containing lots of Golden Russet, Baldwin,Tolman Sweet, Spy, Belle de
Boskoop and other small amounts of high tannin crabs.
I froze about 15 gal. of sweet cider and split the remainder into 6
food grade plastic fermenters. Into four of those I pitched a Cotes des
Blanc (Epernay II) rehydrated dry yeast and the remaining two got
Lalvin D-47 yeast. All got yeast nutrient and all were well aerated
with a filtered air pump system and all got going quickly.
O.G. was 1.054 which I adjusted up with sugars to 1.088.
Now, 6 weeks later, I get a hydrometer reading of .996 in all 6
fermenters.
It is dropping out quite clear without any fining agents.
My plan is to rack out of these 6 fermenters into a 10 gal. oak cask ,
which I use exclusively for ciders and into a 15.5 gal. half barrel SS
keg for bulk aging. Any remaining goes into several 1 gal. glass jugs
to be used for topping off and progress sampling!
At only 6 weeks am I being overly anxious to get these out of primary?
Despite the complete gravity drop will they benefit from sitting on the
lees to encourage MLF? Any other benefits?
If I let them stay in primary, how much longer is recommended?
Thanks for any advice,
Brad
------------------------------
Subject: Re: 2005 Glows Competition (dubious entries?)
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:58:50 -0700
Re Tim Bray's comments, a quick one:
> ...First, I have to
> state my assumption that Dick is correct about Strongbow not meeting the
> guideline for Standard Cider. Is it possible that they entered a specialty
> product, not their mass-market product?
I'd say that if they did it should be considered a dishonest entry.
Whether they did or not, and whether the competition was set up _a_priori_
to prevent that or make it clear it's wrong, I don't know. One of the
troubles in dealing with competitions involving commercial entries is that
you learn by hindsight what the rules should have been!
But really, one of the rules for a commercial producer entering a product
should be that it must be the same as what they ship. The only difference
allowed ought to be that they can pamper the bottle. That is, they take it
off the production line and ship it carefully; they don't need to pull one
out of the south-facing window display that sat there for three months in
Iowa. And of course the entry should be constrained to whatever category
it qualifies for based on ingredients.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Picking out macro-cider blind
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 23:12:27 -0700
"McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com> wrote:
> To pick up on something that Dick D. noted in his GLOWS commentary,
> It's a lot harder to pick out macro-produced cider in a blind test than
> you might think. The stuff is engineered to have broad appeal, with a
> veritable arsenal of flavors and colors.
I -think- I disagree strongly! (?) Set up a large blind tasting; it's not
at all hard to pick Strongbow, Blackthorn, Woodchuck, Woodpecker, etc. out
of the rest. You may not be able to tell Strongbow from Blackthorn, but
you can bet you can tell Westcott Bay or West County or Red Barn...or
any of the full-juice ciders...from any of the six-pack glucose wines!
The reason is exactly what Charles says: The six-pack ciders are engineered
to have "broad appeal"--meaning not much taste overall. You can't make a
characterful cider which doesn't offend some palates, so they knock the
character down about 15 dB. That's actually both taste engineering and
economics, of course, but you can identify it. (I can anyway, and I know
my palate isn't all that good.)
Even when they manipulate the color, as a lame attempt to make you -think-
there's more character than there is, they may fail to be convincing. The
recent example is Magner's, which is colored up to look like it might be a
real cider. But you don't even need to read the label to find that color
has been added. It has a freakish pink-orange cast; folks on ukcider had
a bit of fun with that.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1290
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