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Cider Digest #1278
Subject: Cider Digest #1278, 21 November 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1278 21 November 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
RE: MC Sparkling Cider ("McGonegal, Charles")
More on ice cider (Scott Smith)
Azeotropes ("McGonegal, Charles")
2005 Upper Mississippi Mash-Out! ("aboyce@mn.rr.com")
Re: pneumatics? (Cider Digest #1256) (Claude Jolicoeur)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: MC Sparkling Cider
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:13:27 -0600
In CD 1277, Don Davenport inquires about methode champenoise details.
Don, I think the main reason to re-innoculate pre-tirage is for
consistency. It makes sure that you've got good healthy yeast raring to
go in the bottle. I set my sparking cider (and perry) to tirage at 4
months old, and while it's visually clear, I know it still has quite a
yeast load. I like my 'cidre cuvee' to be between 7 and 8% ABV (purely
for my own comfort for living within the regs). I'm sure that the yeast
load is pretty viable. A grape sparkling wine might be 10-12% ABV, but
at 4-6 months old, I bet there are plenty of viable yeast.
But when producing commcerially, it doesn't take many failed bottles to
encourage you to make sure you've got healthy yeast.
As for post disgorgement dosage, you should be safe if you get a good
clean disgorging. I run my sparkling perry from dry up to 3% RS using a
50 Brix solution. The only difficulty I have found is using concentrate
as a sugar source. I'm coming to believe you run a serious risk of
adding extrordinarily durable yeast species that were living in the
concentrate. (And they do, even at 70 Brix). Normal yeast shouldn't be
able to reproduce when the bottle pressure exceeds 2 bar (30 psig). I
aim for 5-6 bar. If the disgorging is clean, there aren't enough cells
left to make a difference. My products stay stable for years.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery & 'Stillery
------------------------------
Subject: More on ice cider
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:26:27 -0500
I am debating whether to try an ice cider this year and have been
following the recent posts on that topic with interest. My goal is
to make an ice cider of very high initial brix following the Canadian
ice ciders, namely 30+brix initially. I have a couple questions.
I personally don't care about how "authentic" my product is, but is
there any reason why pressing partly frozen apples may lead to better
juice than by freeze-concentrating normal cider? It does seem like
there may be some difference in the compounds left behind in the
apples. I will probably freeze concentrate normal juice just for
simplicity this time around.
Related to this, does the keeving procedure make any sense for an ice
cider? I could try to keeve either before or after freeze-
concentrating, but it may be easier to do it before since less juice
will be lost.
Lastly, are there any special techniques useful for freeze
concentrating juice to such high levels? I read with interest David
Shenks method of repeated freeze-thaw cycles being careful not to
disturb the container, to further stratify the juice. I have also
heard of the technique of putting a tap at the bottom of the
container, and draining off the most sugar-loaded juices as the cider
slowly thaws. My initial plan is to try David's technique but to be
siphoning a bit off the top each time as well, so the brix will climb
even higher than what he got (he reported 1.098 SG = 23.7 brix). I
routinely freeze concentrate my juices by just one round of this
process, so am familiar with the siphoning technique and find it
pretty easy to do. This year for my main cider batch I took my juice
from 1.050 to 1.070 by freeze concentrating, keeved it, and it is now
slowly fermenting at 45F.
Scott
------------------------------
Subject: Azeotropes
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:58:09 -0600
You can't separate an azeoptropic mix by simple distillation - but there
other tricks. Molecular sieves, chemical reactions and pressure
swinging during distillation can all break azeotropes.
An azeotrope is one side effect of a 'non-ideal' solution. The
molecules of compounds A & B (or more) don't interact together the same
way they interact with other 'A' or other 'B' molecules. Cross
interactions can be either weaker or stronger than 'like' interactions.
And by interactions, we're talking about 'weak' electrostatic effect in
fluids, such as hydrogen bonding and dipole moments. There are other
side effects. When you make a non-ideal solution, it may warm up, or
cool down. The final volume probably won't be a simple sum of the two
starting volumes.
Ethanol and water have an azeotrope at about 192 proof. The exact
figure is hard to nail down - different sources don't agree. But that
doesn't imply that you can't get all the ethanol out of water by simple
distillation. I wonder if the article Chris mentions was simply wrong.
In craft distilling there's some alcohol left in the pot of a pot still
- - but as far as I know, it's only because it isn't cost effect to run
the still to the point where the head of the column is the boiling point
of water. Doesn't anyone know what the stripped output of a 'beer
stripper' is? It would have to be under 0.5% ABV to squeak by the TTB
as alcohol free. And that's pretty low.
Charles McGonegal
------------------------------
Subject: 2005 Upper Mississippi Mash-Out!
From: "aboyce@mn.rr.com" <aboyce@mn.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:18:12 -0500
Gentlemen, Start Your EISBEERS!
The 5th Annual Upper Mississippi Mash-Out
Homebrew Competition will held January 20-21, 2006.
For more information:
http://www.mnbrewers.com/mashout/
There will be lots of fun and excitement!
* SEPARATE GOLD MEDALS FOR BOTH BJCP CIDER CATEGORIES!
* SEPARATE BOS AWARDS FOR BEER AND MEAD/CIDER!
* Eis-Anything category returning! (See article in the most recent BYO)
* New Entrant category returning!
* Free commemorative 2005 BOS beer for volunteers!
* Free commemorative pint glass for volunteers!
* Free drawing for volunteers - win cool stuff!
* Indoor "Pub Crawl" Friday night for volunteers only!
* Special fifth anniversary t-shirt for sale!
* Bus to Summit for a tour and tasting pre-banquet!
* Beer Banquet Saturday night! (Rumor: BEER and MEAD will be involved!)
* Free DOOR PRIZES will be given out at the Awards Ceremony!
Register to judge or volunteer now!
http://www.mnbrewers.com/mashout/
Entry Deadline is Dec 26-Jan 6.
Register ONLINE to save a buck per entry!
http://www.mnbrewers.com/mashout/
See you there!
------------------------------
Subject: Re: pneumatics? (Cider Digest #1256)
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 22:59:57 -0500
In Cider Digest #1256, 12 September 2005,
Dick Dunn wrote:
>Subject: pneumatics?
>From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
>Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 23:09:26 -0600
>
>A friend of mine, who watches my cider milling/pressing experiments with
>detached interest, keeps telling me that I should be building a pneumatic
>press. His point is that with a pneumatic system, you just bring the
>pressure up however slowly you want (to avoid a mess from the initial
>flood of juice) and then leave the pressure on. Unlike a screw press
>where you have to keep tightening it, the pneumatic system just adds
>"squeeze" as needed.
I have a pneumatic actuator (also called air spring) that I use sometimes.
For an example of what it looks like, see:
http://www.firestoneindustrial.com/Industrial/index.htm
and look for Airstroke and actuators.
I got this as an old unit from the University laboratory where I work that
isn't used anymore. Diameter is about 30 cm and it can provide a force of 2
tons when inflated at 45 psi. And if you double the pressure, you will also
double the force. It can be inflated with a small bicycle pump, but this is
a bit long. A small electric pump can also be used.
Such units, new, cost about 200$. But I guess it could be found used as
they are used for truck suspension.
The unit I have just fits inside the barrel of my screw press. It is a
single bellow model with a usable stroke of 3 inches. The main advantage is
that the force doesn't decrease rapidly as the pomace is compressed. But,
on the other hand, it is a bit cumbersome to use and the setup time is a
bit long.
I use it almost only for overnight presses. I often do a second pressing of
the pomace and, on this pressing, the juice takes a lot more time to flow.
So, I fill the press to capacity late at night, I make a first compression
with the screw, set the air spring in, inflate it, and go to sleep. Next
morning, there is still a good force acting on the pomace, a good amount of
juice, and the pomace is very dry.
Claude Jolicoeur
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1278
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