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Cider Digest #1270
Subject: Cider Digest #1270, 27 October 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1270 27 October 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Synthetic Keeving? (The Grant Family)
Re: Cider Digest #1269, 24 October 2005 (Sketchpub@aol.com)
Sweeter Cider, Apple flavor and alchohol ("David Blakely")
Pressing? ("Harrison Gibbs")
Re: Distillation workshop (Ian Merwin)
More tannin experiments ("McGonegal, Charles")
Re: Cider Competitions (Claude Jolicoeur)
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Subject: Synthetic Keeving?
From: The Grant Family <grants@netspace.net.au>
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:43:26 +1100
Hi all,
Could someone please explain to me what happens *chemically* in order for
the nutrients to be precipitated/gelled out of solution during keeving?
In my two years' experience in trying (and failing) to keeve my musts, it's
been lack of pectin that's tripped me up. So I had a thought the other day
- - pondering on how to get more pectin in my musts - about whether adding
pectin (as a powder or whatever) would be beneficial in terms of keeving.
Would adding foreign pectin ensure that the PME would have something to
work on - thereby allowing the pectin to precipitate/gel the Ca++ and
aminos (I think) out of solution. Adding two ingredients which react with
each other doesn't seem like it would do much to the must itself...!
Or am I a genius?
Cheers
Stuart Grant
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1269, 24 October 2005
From: Sketchpub@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 02:16:08 EDT
Dick,
Your about Hobart reminds of old friends of mine that used a gas powered lawn
mower to grind their apples.
Jim just took off the grass catcher and dropped the apples down through the
catcher hole on the up side of the mower; the mower was set up on a couple of
boards over a plastic barrel. I was surprised how well it shredded the apples.
Ron Irvine
Irvine's Vintage Cider
------------------------------
Subject: Sweeter Cider, Apple flavor and alchohol
From: "David Blakely" <slodave69@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 08:41:30 -0700
I just got done making a batch of cider. I have primed it and it is now in
the bottles. We did three batches. One batch using campden tablets and then
White's lab yeast. One batch with no campden tabs and the same White's lab
yeast and the final batch with no campden tabs and no yeast. They all taste
very much alike. They all taste good. Here are my questions-
1. How do you measure alchohol content? Do you use the same formula that is
used in beer? We have the specific gravity measurements at all stages of
fermentation.
2. How can I make the final product taste more like apples?
3. How can I make the final product sweeter? (Saachrin is not an option)
All the best,
David
------------------------------
Subject: Pressing?
From: "Harrison Gibbs" <rharrisong@lycos.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:56:31 -0500
I have a new basket-ratchet type press and I was wondering what steps
may I need to be take to press apples. I have pressed grapes before on a
similar press and there was no problem with the peels squeezing through the
wooden slats. However, the apples come out of the grinder pretty mushy.
Do I need a nylon or cotton bag to hold the pomice? Also, how much juice
should I expect per bushel of normal apples (Winesap, Ginger Gold, Ida Red,
Granny Smith...)? Finally, how do you use crap apples? How much crab is
too much? Any advice would be helpful. Thanks.
Harrison Gibbs
Williamsburg, VA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Distillation workshop
From: Ian Merwin <im13@cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:19:54 -0400
Folks-
Those of you interested in eau de vies and cider or other fruit wine
distillations may want to attend a workshop to be held at the New
York Ag Experiment Station in Geneva NY on December 2nd and 3rd at
the vinification lab. This will be an introductory how-to session,
using a newly installed Holstein/ Alsatian style mash or liquid
fractionating still, not one the old alembic style stills. Details
will follow as we assess the interest.
- --
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((!)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Ian A. Merwin, PhD
Professor of Horticulture & International Agriculture
118 Plant Science Bldg
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, USA, 14853
Telephone: 607-255-1777
<www.hort.cornell.edu/department/faculty/merwin/index.htm>
------------------------------
Subject: More tannin experiments
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:10:35 -0500
Following up on my little experiment with ferric nitrate, I went through
and measured all the traditonal cider apples I have examples of this
year. I must admit that I ate the Muscadet Dieppie a few days ago, and
I could squeeze enough juice out of the overly sweated Coat Jersey to
get even the half milliliter that I'm doing these experiments with.
But for the rest, listed in order of _decreasing_ tannin content based
on visual comparison of response:
Frequin Rouge > Domaine > Binet Blanc > Twistbody Jersey > Michelin >
Dabinette > Fauxwhelp > Sweet Alford/La Bret > Medaille d'Or > Wickson
Crab > reagent blank
Now, I'll make some comments on these that the photos also (sometimes)
demonstrate:
1) The Frequin Rouge is a hard/sour tannin profile while Domaine and
Binet Blanc are soft/earthy profiles. It's easy to taste the tannins in
the Frequin R., not so in the Domaine and Binet B. The intensity of
respone is nearly the same.
2) I tried diluting the 250uL sample : 1000uL reagent test by another
250:1000 uL with DI water as the diluent. It was maybe a little easier
to eorder the samples. It was also more obvious that in some of the
samples, a lot of tannins were bound to particulates. Notably, the
Twistbosy Jersey and the Michelin show a diffuse, no-particulate
response.
3) I used Illustrator to do a yellow subtraction on the photos. The
blank becomes clear, as does the Wickson Crab. With this photo, I might
reorder the samples to put Dabinette between Binet Blanc and Twistbody
Jersey.
Caveats:
These are based on _really_ small samples.
I didn't specify before, but the reagent is Fe(NO3)3 in water, 0.1%wt Fe
Here are the photos, I'll try to get the slashes right this time:
www.appletrue.com/tannin_exp/ordered_small.jpg
www.appletrue.com/tannin_exp/ordered_diluted_small.jpg
www.appletrue.com/tannin_exp/ordered_sans_yellow_small.jpg
www.appletrue.com/tannin_exp/ordered_diluted_sans_yellow_small.jpg =20
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery & 'Stillery=20
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Competitions
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:41:34 -0400
In Cider Digest 1269, Gary Awdey wrote a long message about cider
competitions...
I have different opinions on some of the points he brought. Nevertheless,
these points are interesting and deserve some discussion.
Gary wrote:
>One thing that seems noteworthy is that often the competition winners are
>people who have never made cider before and get lucky on the first try.
>Sometimes it's a matter of whether or not it is a well-made cider, while
>other times it's a matter of luck in drawing the judges who happen to like
>the style. The top cidermaker is chosen on the basis of one cider.
On this, I'd say that I made my first cider in 1988. I thought it was so
good at the time that I kept on making some cider since. And I'm not sure
the cider I do now is much better than my first batch. The same apples are
used (the Northern Cortland, in particular...) and in my opinion, it is the
quality of the apples that do the quality of the cider - as long as the
cider is well made. There is not much one can do to improve a cider when
the full flavour pefectly ripened apples is present.
Gary continues:
>Recognition of new styles presents a new potential challenge to cidermakers.
>Wouldn't it be nice if there were a competition in which breadth of
>experience was recognized? Something like a cider triathlon. Entries from
>any three of the nine cider or perry subcategories (cidermaker's choice)
>would be entered. Judging would be by tally of points. Three solid ciders
>and/or perries would do better overall than one exceptional one (whether
>exeptional by skill or luck) and two duds.
On this also, I have reserves. If we look at wine, most great French
vignobles produce only one type of wine. Some will do a white and a red. I
don't see any reason why the Chateau that produces a good red and a good
white should get more points than the Chateau that produces an exceptionnal
red and no white.
I have always made the same type of cider, which is an extra dry Champagne
type of cider - in French I call it "Cidre bouche brut". But now, since
last year (and thanks to Gary and his PME enzymes) I am trying myself at
keeved and sweeter cider. The success I may have (or not have) with this
sweet cider should not add or remove quality (or points in a contest) my
Cidre brut would have.
But I agree it is nice to have variations and I do make some variants with
different mixtures of varieties and the use of pears now that the many
apple and pear varieties that I have introduced in my orchard have started
to produce fruits.
And, finally Gary wrote:
>boost their overall score. It's good that they're trying, but if the people
>who really have a true passion for cider started entering more of these
>competitions (ahem...who would that be...possibly any of us who post to or
>lurk the Cider Digest?) then perhaps we'd see a general improvement in both
>the quality of ciders entered and a gradual improvement in the experience of
>the judges.
Well, here, I do agreee - judges probably need to be educated - and the
same for consumers. If we want competitions to mean something, then the
best has to be entrered. It is absolutely meaningless to give a prize to
the best in a group of bad ciders. However, I think for most of us, getting
points in competition doesn't really mean anything - we get our pleasure in
drinking our cider and offering it to friends. On the other hand, if I had
a business of producing industrial quantities of cider and selling it, it
would be nice to write on the label that this cider has won such a
competition - it gives credibility.
Claude, in Quebec.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1270
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