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Cider Digest #1259
Subject: Cider Digest #1259, 18 September 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1259 18 September 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Re-identifying 'Fauxwhelp' (Dick Dunn)
Muscat deBernay, Fauxwhelp, etc. (Tim Bray)
CiderDay 2005 ("John Howard")
Northern Cortland (Claude Jolicoeur)
Local apples (Jason MacArthur)
Central Asian apples (Benjamin Watson)
Urban Harvest in NYC (Benjamin Watson)
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Subject: Re: Re-identifying 'Fauxwhelp'
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:45:41 -0600
Charles McGonegal wrote in the last digest...
> I believe it's widely acknowledged that the 'Foxwhelp' available in
> several places in the Midwest US has been mis-labelled. But do we have
> any idea what it might actually be?
Seeing your description, I'm now wondering if there is more than one
"Fauxwhelp" (variety labeled Foxwhelp that really isn't) in the US!
> The specimen I have, sourced from You-Probably-Know-Who Nursery, matches
> samples that I've had from another regional grower. Now that I'm
> starting to get samples from my young cider orchard, I'm struck by how
> much this 'Fauxwhelp' looks like my 'Sweet Alford'. (Of course, it just
> figures that Sweet Alford is known to have been confused with 'La Bret'
> at key scion sources :-) The main difference is that my 'Fauxwhelp'
> makes fruit even paler than 'Sweet Alford/La Bret' - so pale that the
> green ground color looks nearly grey/white...
The not-a-real-Foxwhelp I've got produces fruit with substantial red.
>...Is anyone else growing
> 'White Jersey' and 'Sweet Alford', to comment on the two? My (known)
> White Jersey haven't produced yet, but you can see where I'm headed with
> this line of thought. I'll have to go look at the leaves and bark.
I guess I'm thick, but once you brought White Jersey into the thread, you
lost me on your line of thought.
What's the character of the fruit? Foxwhelp is supposed to be a
bittersharp, and quite sharp at that. My faux-Foxwhelp here meet
that criterion. But Sweet Alford should be a sweet or mild bittersweet.
White Jersey, as with most (?all?) Jerseys, should be a bittersweet.
> I guess another question would be, 'Do Jersey-type apples have a
> characteristic shape?' I don't have a big enough sample from my Jersey
> collection to be sure. =20
So it is said. For example, in Liz Copas' _Somerset_Pomona_ she mentions
"Yarlington Mill fruit is a typical 'jersey' shape, often quite large,
conical with a distinct nose and yellow with a pinkish flush..." That
conical shape seems to be more-or-less present in various Jerseys shown
in her book.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Muscat deBernay, Fauxwhelp, etc.
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:58:05 -0700
Gary suggested, re: Muscat deBernay:
>Tim will no doubt have to face up to careless spelling
As if! That's the way it was spelled in the catalog I ordered it from -
Sonoma Antique Apple Nursery, now Trees of Antiquity - and that's how it is
listed in Morgan & Richards, so there! ;-p
The description Gary posted matches my results to an astonishingly exact
degree, right down to the "drops fruit before ripe." Mine throw off a lot
of fruit, but still produce a considerable crop, especially for such narrow
trees. They grow very upright, with narrow crotch angles, almost columnar;
I could have planted them much closer together. They are both precocious
and productive, setting a good crop every year. The fruit sets in clusters,
and the stems are short, so they make a terrific habitat for earwigs...
which I wouldn't mind so much (they eat aphids), but they fill the basins
with poop.
They are completely unlike Margil, which does extremely poorly here; I've
never gotten a crop.
Charles' "Fauxwhelp" sounds completely unlike mine. The tree I got as
"Foxwhelp" sets very large, round fruit, heavily streaked with red, ripens
early, and seems to be a mild bittersweet; very low-acid, not much flavor,
not much of anything really. Wonder what this is?
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: CiderDay 2005
From: "John Howard" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:26:50 -0400
Another couple CiderDay events worthy special note:
"The Art & Commerce of Small Scale Commercial Cidermaking" a panel
discussion on Sat with Richard & Susan Anderson, Andrew Lea, Terry Maloney,
and Steve Wood
The Cider Salon is a rare opportunity to sample a wide variety of domestic
ciders.
Heirloom apple tastings ongoing Sat & Sun with the opportunity to purchase
these rare and tasty apples.
Cider & cheese pairing event on Sun afternoon.
Several participating orchards have cidermaking blends of sweet juice for
sale in bulk.
John Howard
------------------------------
Subject: Northern Cortland
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 20:47:52 -0400
In CD 1256, Jon Hamilton asked:
>Claude and Charles,
>Is this northern Cortland truly the same variety, with differences in flavor
>a result of the conditions or terroir, or is it a entirely different
>variety?
I think these Northern Cortlands are the same, genetically speaking, as
those grown further South. The difference coming from factors as soil,
climate, day lenght, coolness at night, length of season, etc...
The same sort of difference can be seen with McIntosh, for example, which
is far superior when grown in the North (and can even become a valuable
cider apple). On the other hand, some varieties which are fantastic when
grown somewhere else will do poorly in my orchard. This is why I now think
it is better to find the varieties that will perform naturally in your
orchard than try to adapt a vintage variety that will perform poorly.
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: Local apples
From: Jason MacArthur <rotread@localnet.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 06:45:47 -0400
On Sep 12, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
> So, I am starting to think it is much better to have local apples
> matured
> to perfection than vintage apples that are badly adapted to my
> location and
> do not fully develop their flavors. The cider obtained might not have a
> special character given by these vintage apples, but will have another
> character, which we may call a local character, given by the varieties
> used
> and the terroir, and I don't think this is in any way inferior.
>
I could not agree more with this sentiment; in fact I believe that this
is central to cider's revival. Every region has to find the apples
which grow well there and which make a cider to the liking of those who
will be drinking it. If cider makers merely try and ape the cider
style which has become popular somewhere else then not only will the
fruit not match the terroir but the cider making itself will surely be
uninspired. How much more interesting it will be when every cider
maker knows the apples which best express their climate, soil, and
tastes.
That having been said, it is important that cider makers lucky enough
to be able to grow our own fruit keep an open mind. The Cortland is no
more native to Quebec, or to my locale here in Vermont, than the
Kingston Black, and it is only by the process of growing each one and
making cider from them that one can really determine the superiority of
one over the other. It is truly a daunting task! :)
So let us all continue to experiment, while never leaving the grafting
knife too far behind.
Jason MacArthur
Marlboro, Vt.
USA
------------------------------
Subject: Central Asian apples
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 09:53:34 -0400
CD members might be interested in hearing about a tour that I took
yesterday of the Central Asian apple collection at the USDA-ARS
experiment station farm in Geneva, NY. Despite the 6.5 hour drive from
New Hampshire, it was well worth seeing these species actually growing
in the field. Phil Forsline, the curator of the collection, took me
around with a group from the Niagara region, and we had an opportunity
to taste some remarkable apples.
The apples were collected over several trips to Central Asia, China's
Sichuan province, Turkey, and the Russian Caucacus. One thing that
surprised and impressed me was how vigorous most of these trees really
are, and the diversity of leaf shape and fruiting characteristics of
the wild apple. Some of the M. orientalis are prime candidates for
breeding beautiful ornamental trees -- really lovely leaf shapes and
tiny apomictic fruits.
The apples from Kazakhstan and other Central Asian nations (M.
sieversii) come from a wide range of growing regions -- everything from
near-desert conditions to cold, northern, mountainous areas.
One downside of these apples is that most of them are fairly
early-bearing, and in fact some were past their prime by mid-September
and had dropped their fruit on the ground. But the flavor and shape of
these apples was impressive. Although many were smallish (nobody had
done any hand-thinning, and I suspect the fruitlets of many wild
varieties don't June drop as much as our domestic apple varieties), the
taste of all the fruits we sampled as we nibbled through the orchard
ranged from acceptable to really superb in a couple of cases. In one
case, we cut up a large, beautiful apple that had a fine flavor -- in
my opinion (and from strictly a taste perspective) it was ready for
market, with no further improvement or breeding necessary. Keep in
mind, these are all wild apples -- though this accession I refer to was
one of the ones that Geneva refers to as an "elite" variety. Yet even
some of the non-elite seedlings were quite good.
It might be a bit late this year (unless you can contact Phil Forsline
and tag along on a tour next weekend), but I would encourage growers
next year to try and come to Geneva to look over this collection and
put your teeth into some of these fruits. For anyone who's fascinated
with apple diversity, it's a revelation. And these fruits may
contribute to future American apples -- conferring some disease and
pest resistance to our varieties. Particularly in terms of apple scab,
which is endemic to Central Asia and to which many of these apples tend
to have at least some resistance.
I finished the day driving up and down Cayuga and Seneca Lakes and
visiting with Bill Barton of Bellwether Cider. He has a new tasting
room, which was packed with wine tourists -- it's good to see this kind
of interest in well-made hard cider. The pride of Bill's operation is
his very unique and expensive counter-pressure bottle filler, purchased
from a company in California that is now apparently building tabletop
models, which would be great for cidermakers, who have to deal with a
low-alcohol product and want to ensure that their is minimal oxidation
in bottling. Bill says this machine greatly extends the bottle and
shelf life and quality of his cider.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Urban Harvest in NYC
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 10:04:48 -0400
On Sunday October 2nd, Slow Food USA will be sponsoring the second
edition of Urban Harvest, a celebration and tasting of regional foods
and spirits, in New York City.
In the morning, the New Amsterdam Marketplace will take place on One
Centre St., across from City Hall. In the afternoon, I'll be helping
with Spirits of the Region, in which artisanal wines, beers, and ciders
of the Northeast will be featured at the Institute for Culinary
Education (ICE) on West 23rd St. I will be conducting a small workshop
on the history and culture of cider, and several of the cidermakers
(Farnum Hill, West County Winery, Bellwether Hard Cider) will be on
hand to pour and discuss their products at the general tasting.
The details can be found at www.slowfoodusa.org -- the Spirits program
isn't exactly cheap ($55 for members, $65 for non-members), but then
again it is NYC and you won't be able to find these products elsewhere
- -- except of course at CiderDay on Nov. 5-6, where we will have all
these ciders and many more at the Cider Salon.
Speaking of CiderDay, we are once again honored to have our CD Janitor
coming to the event, as well as other experts and friends like Gary
Awdey and Andrew Lea from the UK. This festival is going into its 11th
year in 2005, and this promises to be the best CiderDay ever -- we
always try to top ourselves (and spend a lot of time trying to figure
out how to do this year after year), but this year we really think it
will be especially good. For the full schedule, directions, etc., you
can go to www.ciderday.org
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
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End of Cider Digest #1259
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