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Cider Digest #1305
Subject: Cider Digest #1305, 5 March 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1305 5 March 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: more R2 experimental notes (Dick Dunn)
Re: Starting a siphon (Dick Dunn)
Re: Cider Competitions ("David Houseman")
Stinking yeasts and stopping fermentation ("McGonegal, Charles")
Starting a syphon (Andrew Lea)
Yeast on the press (Andrew Lea)
Juice Percentage in Various Apple Varieties? ("Varilyn Schock")
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Subject: Re: more R2 experimental notes
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 09:44:22 -0700
Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net> wrote:
> Just as a follow-up to the R2 (Sauternes) yeast batch that I'm doing, I
> wonder if I could ask my fellow amateur cider makers on CD to give
> their opinion as to what might be best in terms of stopping
> fermentation on this small quantity (3 gal. carboy).
...
> 1. Add some potassium sorbate, along with a bit of potassium
> metabisulfite (to avoid that unpleasant "geranium" flavor. What's the
> recommended rate per gallon for stopping a ferment with sorbate and
> stabilizing it ...
Sorbate won't stop a fermentation! It will prevent an inactive
fermentation from restarting, but that's not where you stand according
to your notes. How about chilling it way down and then using sulfite?
> 2. In-bottle pasteurization, a la Bill Rhyne's technique with Rhyne
> Cyder, thus killing off the remaining yeast and leaving the residual
> sugar.
That works but you will get somewhat of a "cooked" taste because of heating
the sugars.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Starting a siphon
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 09:53:33 -0700
Matt Wehland <mattw@webtripper.com> wrote:
> Just thought I'd add one or two more things on starting a siphon.
> One thing is that you only need to use your thumb on one end of the hose,
> since with no incoming air, the water in the hose can't move. Keeps your
> dirty hand out of the product...
You don't need to put your thumb on either end of the hose. Pinch it shut
a bit away from the end.
> Alternative racking cane, just use a piece of copper tubing from the local
> hardware...
Copper and cider aren't a good combination. I suppose for the five minutes
or so of contact during siphoning it might be OK, but why chance it?
Anyway, a purpose-made racking cane is only a few bucks.
> Wow, how did I just write this much on siphoning?...
It's one of those processes that's actually really easy to do but somehow
hard to describe.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Competitions
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 11:51:00 -0500
Harrison,
You'll be happy to know that the BJCP is going to institute cider and mead
judging training and certification. While some BJCP judges are very
knowledgeable in judging meads or cider, the vast majority are not. So
along with the BJCP continuing education program a committee is being formed
to address this hole in sanctioned competitions that has only beer
knowledgeable judges judge mead and cider. Of course not everyone will take
these additional certifications, but where they do the competitions should
be providing better judging of these beverages. These additional
certifications will only be as good as the training materials and
certification exams enable them to be. I would encourage any knowledgeable
cider and mead makers who have an interest in improving the status of
judging of these beverages to step forward and participate in the committee
to create these certifications.
Regards,
David Houseman
BJCP Competition Director
------------------------------
Subject: Stinking yeasts and stopping fermentation
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 11:10:27 -0600
I'll put my replies to Ben. W. in one note and tangle up the
conversation threads.
Regarding R2 sometimes making a stink - keep watching it until you've
got it off the rough lees. The time it stank up on me was _after_ the
primary ferment. The white cap and fallen and the yeast was well into
settling when the batches sulfered up.
I've noted this with EC-1118 and Cote des Blancs, too. The lees will
sometimes start stinking. The cure is the same - nitrogen. If t, I rack
the cider/perry off the lees once they've stopped smelling. I'm amazed
at how fast the yeast respond to nitrogen - I've had perry clear up in a
couple of hours.
Stopping fermentations:
I don't have a problem with attempting a pad filtration - I throw away
the first 3-4 gallons. But then again, I hardly miss it :-) (Unless
it's pommeau!)
Things to consider:
K-sorb (sorry, potassium sorbate) won't stop a fermentation - you need
to get the yeast out first. I do that by filtering.
K-sorb won't hold a stopped fermentation against restarting under 10%ABV
for a table cider. It needs the suppression by the alcohol to be
effective. Now I've kept draft cider stopped with filter and sorbate at
6% ABV and just under 2 volumes CO2, so I think the CO2 pressure helps.
The best thing about whole bottle pasteuruzation is that you don't have
to worry about down-stream contamination. Are your carboys sterile?
Bottles? Does airborn yeast get in during transfers?
The ProElif beads that I mention in the last article would be a nifty
idea to try; toss in a nylon bag of beads and pull them out at the point
you want. But you have to put them into a sterile must or the free yeast
make the effort moot. The manufacturer recommends using them with
lysozyme, some sulfite and after a membrane filtration. Tough to do
with a small batch of juice, and then keep it from refermenting. Does
seem like an interesting area for experimentation, though.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Starting a syphon
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:55:45 +0000
Matt Wehland wrote:
> Alternative racking cane, just use a piece of copper tubing from the local
> hardware. If I ever get around to brewing again (ya, if I couldn't get
> around to it before, having a new baby will really help), this is what I plan
> on using.
Fine for beer where the pH is high and copper is often used in the
process to remove sulfur components anyway. But be very careful with
cider or wine where traces of copper are likely to dissolve out into the
fruit acid and cause discoloration and off-flavours!
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Yeast on the press
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 15:19:07 +0000
Terry Bradshaw wrote:
> (Actually I was concerned about a lack of inocula on my new press, so
> decided to hedge my bets). That brings up a question, presumably for
> Andrew. How long should it take to build up a colony of cider yeasts on
> my wood press?
I will attempt a reply but only because Terry asked me! [How long is a
piece of string?] In my experience it takes just one or two seasons. I
never add yeast now although I did early on. But a lot will depend on
how much sanitizing you do. I do not sanitize my racks or cloths, I just
hose / brush them well with water and air dry them. This was the way
we did it when I was at Long Ashton and we were a research station! My
cloths always live indoors after washing in the domestic washing machine
and spin drying - but because my racks live outdoors during the season
I have occasionally sprayed them with dilute sulphite to inhibit mould
growth in our damp British climate but that's about all I do. I do
make sure the fruit is well washed though, and of course I am quite
careful about adding the right amount of sulfite to all fermentations.
I note that you make a lot of unpasturised juice - obviously for that
reason I can see you would want to reduce the yeast inoculum to a
minimum to extend shelf life. And for that you have to be really
fastidious - I once worked with a large juice mfg using Bucher-Guyer
piston presses which he sterilised between each run for the same reasons
as you. But for cider I really don't think masses of press sterilisation
is worth the effort - indeed rather the reverse, because if you have a
house inoculum you're happy with and it gets fermenting quickly then
that is just what you want!
>I do sanitize before and after each run with Star-San, an
> acid-wash type of product. I also seal both the press boxes and racks
> with shellac.
You didn't mention the cloths - unless you're sterilising them too you
must be wasting your time!
> I would be willing to save out one rack from the
>> sanitizer specifically for building up cultures, kind of like a cheese
>> board. Any thoughts?
Sounds interesting - if you could keep that one rack *only* for
fermented cider batches.
Andrew
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Juice Percentage in Various Apple Varieties?
From: "Varilyn Schock" <vschock@qwest.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 21:07:34 -0700
Greetings Everyone!
I always enjoy reading comparisons of various apple varieties and
considering which ones to grow for sweet and hard cider, and I am
somewhat surprised that I haven't come across a resource that lists the
percentage of juice in each variety. I am aware of the typical
categories for comparing the flavors, etc. but these don't indicate the
relative level of juice. Obviously, the amount of juice in an apple
depends greatly on the amount of water a tree receives, climate, etc.,
etc., but different varieties do seem to have more or less juice as a
result of the variety alone. Is it the case that there a
meaningful/measurable differences? Common descriptions of various kinds
of apples may include a comment that an apple is "juicy" but what I've
read are basically subjective statements. It seems like, in a
controlled environment, different varieties would produce different
levels of juice. What are the experts' views on the subject and, if the
amounts are significant, does anyone know of a credible book, research
paper, or report that quantifies the percentage of juice in each
variety?
Thanks to all of the contributors, and our esteemed "janitor," for some
great reading!
Varilyn Schock
cartcak@hotmail.com
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1305
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