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Cider Digest #1272
Subject: Cider Digest #1272, 1 November 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1272 1 November 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Karmijn de Sonnaville (Joan Fletcher)
Regarding Karmijn de Sonnaville (Cornelius Traas)
Karmijn De Sonnaville (John Emmett)
karmijn de sonnaville ("mporch@frontiernet.net")
Re: Karmijn De Sonnaville (Tim Bray)
Re: Sweeter Cider, Apple flavor and alchohol (Tim Bray)
Re: Karmijn De Sonnaville ("John C. Campbell III")
Reminder: Cidermaker's Forum at Vintage Virginia Apples Nov. 19th ("McGone...)
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Subject: Re: Karmijn de Sonnaville
From: Joan Fletcher <cyberwyrd@telus.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:41:45 -0800
> John C. Campbell III wrote
> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:39:50 -0400
>
> Well, it may be that 'terroir' has some dramatic effect even on this
> variety, but I must say that I am completely underwhelmed with the
> highly touted Karmijn De Sonnaville.
Last year my Karmijn had fruit (first year it fruited) that tasted like
the descriptions in the catalogues. This year the fruit tasted like
your description. I left it on the tree until mid-October, as the
literature indicates, but I wonder if in our climate (Vancouver, B.C.)
it should have been picked earlier. I also wonder if the warm winters
we have contributes to the lack of character.
------------------------------
Subject: Regarding Karmijn de Sonnaville
From: Cornelius Traas <con.traas@theapplefarm.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:08:12 +0000
We have been growing Karmijn de Sonnaville since 1982, and this year
have a crop of about sixty tonnes from six acres. It is a most
frustrating apple to grow, suffering from severe russet in most
seasons, usually setting less than optimum crops (as is the case this
year), and quite susceptible to scab, and canker, and desperately
susceptible to mildew.
It is basically a like a Cox's Orange Pippin, but with, to my taste,
more acidity and aroma. When grown in the Irish (cool wet) climate, it
is very firm at harvest, but usually too acidic to eat, and then when
the flavour mellows, it is not long before the texture follows, so
there is really only a window of perhaps two weeks when it is good
without cold storage, and two months with cold storage. For these
reasons, it is not an improvement on Cox, and it certainly is not being
commercially planted in the UK, or anywhere else in Europe to my
knowledge. From my perspective, it is useful because though it does not
yield well, it is a bit better than Cox.
I grow Karmijn for customers of my farm shop, where it sells well
during its season (despite its looks), taking about 30% of sales when
competing directly with well flavoured Elstar and Jonagored, and some
small volumes of Golden Delicious. There are definitely people who like
the strong flavour, but who also do not mind if it is not especially
firm.
The main reason that I grow Karmijn is for the apple juice that I make,
most of which I blend with Karmijn. It produces a very strongly
flavoured juice, with 14% brix (or more) and good aroma, and I can
back-blend with cull Jonagoreds or whatever, and still get a very good
juice.
I would say to John, that biting into a crisp Karmijn probably would
make you come out of your chair, but only because such an apple would
probably have been freshly picked, and is actually overpowering. I do
not sell them until a month after harvest. Regarding the texture, it
should still be good (6.5kg) at that stage, but not really hard.
However, for juice, the flavour only gets better the softer the apples
become.
I would not recommend it for anywhere with warm summers, and indeed I
would not recommend it unless you have a mind to make juice (or perhaps
cider), though I am only an amateur cidermaker, and cannot comment on
the qualities that Karmijn bring to a cider. Also, because It is
difficult to grow (the most difficult of fifteen apples I have on the
farm), I would not recommend it for an amateur grower.
However, as someone with quite a lot of this apple, I am interested to
find out if others have made good cider with it, as if it has such a
use, I may diversify the next time I have a good crop, whenever that
will be.
With best wishes from Ireland
Con Traas
www.karmine.com
www.theapplefarm.com
------------------------------
Subject: Karmijn De Sonnaville
From: John Emmett <jlemmett@iinet.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:15:15 -0800
I grow Karmijn De Sonnaville here in Vancouver, WA (USDA zone 8
minus) and find it to be an excellent eating apple. I like strongly
flavored, high acid, high sugar apples like King David, Roxbury Russet,
Pink Parfait, etc. The texture of those I grow are crisp and juicy,
not as crisp as a Pink Parfait (which for crispness is highly unusual),
but more crisp than an Ashmead's Kernel, but perhaps quite like a
Newtown Pippin. If you let it get badly over ripe it will be mealy. I
grow about 60 kinds of apples (a hobby that got out of hand) and find
the Karmijn to be in the top half dozen for fine eating quality.
Every year we have a "Too Many Apples Party" for about 40 - 50 friends
and we have a semi-formal apple tasting. We usually have 20 - 30 types
that are close to peak for the party and the Karmijn ends up in nearly
everyone's top 5. (The Pink Parfait is usually #1 for a majority of the
guests.) I make cider and grow a lot of English and French
bittersweets for it. I use some Karmijn's but usually they are in such
great demand for eating that not many end up in the cider. I think
that when I have more Karmijns I'll use them in cider, but that is a
few years away.
John L. Emmett
jlemmett@iinet.com
------------------------------
Subject: karmijn de sonnaville
From: "mporch@frontiernet.net" <mporch@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 02:36:05 +0000
j.c III, i have 20 or so karmijn de sonnaville trees just starting to
bear fruit here in upstate new york. i harvested just a few to taste
this fall, but not enough to press. i found them powerful enough to
make my eyes water and my face sweat- sort of like downing a bag of
sweettarts. they BETTER be good for cider because i don't think many
people would eat a whole one. this is what makes fruit growing "fun"
and "interesting"- even the same variety can vary so much. regards,
doug fincke
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Karmijn De Sonnaville
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:52:54 -0800
Must be the Terroir, John. My Karmijns exactly match the descriptions,
especially the one from the SAAN (now Trees of Antiquity)
catalogue. "Masses of sugar and acidity" - yep! "Overwhelms tastes when
just off the tree" - Yep! Only difference is I don't think it is a good
keeper, it loses the wonderful crisp texture in 3 or 4 weeks. For me it
is actually too strong, I prefer Ashmead's or a full-ripe King David, but
my wife ranks KdS as her #1 or #2 favorite eating apple, depending on the
year. The fruit is quite variable in size, sometimes very large;
frequently heavily russeted; brick-red on the sunny side. Tree is vigorous
but leggy.
My terroir includes a deep sandy loam that is slightly acidic and very
nutrient-poor, and a climate more like the west coast of England than
anywhere else in the US. We have cool wet winters with hardly any frost,
wet springs, long cool summers (daytime highs typically 65 - 70 F, can't
grow stone fruits or nuts at all). I think the cool summers make a huge
difference in fruit character. Most of my English apples are very true to
type, except Kingston Black which ripens early rather than late, and Harry
Masters Jersey, which didn't get enough chill; but some French and American
varieties do not do so well - apparently they expect more heat in summer
and cold in winter. Scab is a big problem.
The cool summer tilts the balance toward more acid and less sugar, so more
acidic types (like KdS!) are not good for cider. I sweat my cider apples
until they start to soften, to drive the acidity down as far as
possible. The climate and/or soil also seems to favor tannin
production. (I still have a carboy full of cider from last year, made from
Porter's Perfection, Yarlington Mill, and some Roxburies, that is too
tannic to drink. I hope to blend it with mead.)
So, my guess is that your summers are too hot for Karmijns.
Cheers,
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Sweeter Cider, Apple flavor and alchohol
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:19:40 -0800
David asks:
>1. How do you measure alchohol content? Do you use the same formula that is
>used in beer?
Yes. Cider generally ferments completely dry, so usually all you need is
the initial gravity reading and you can predict the final ABV.
>2. How can I make the final product taste more like apples?
Don't ferment it.
To paraphrase Dick - you don't expect lager to taste like grain; nor
champagne to taste like grapes; why expect cider to taste like apples?
You *can* get the finished cider to retain apple *character* (aromas and
flavor notes). This is a complex subject - we're basically making wine,
after all - but in a nutshell it requires slowing down fermentation by
reducing yeast activity. See answer to #3.
>3. How can I make the final product sweeter? (Saachrin is not an option)
A) Don't ferment it.
B) Ferment it and then add unfermented juice to the glass when drinking.
C) Ferment to dryness, stabilize with sorbate or pasteurize, and blend in
pasteurized juice (or honey) at bottling.
D) Keeve the juice, allow spontaneous fermentation, ferment cold, rack
several times, and hope the yeast give out before they finish the
job. This works spectacularly well if you live in Normandy or Brittany,
but is very difficult everywhere else.
Read everything on Andrew Lea's excellent website:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/Content2.HTM
It's far and away the best Web source of information on the subject.
Cider is easier to make than beer, but much more difficult to make _well_,
in my opinion.
Cheers,
Tim
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Karmijn De Sonnaville
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:34:11 -0500
Tim Bray wrote:
> Must be the Terroir, John. My Karmijns exactly match the
> descriptions, especially the one from the SAAN (now Trees of
> Antiquity) catalogue. "Masses of sugar and acidity" - yep!
> "Overwhelms tastes when just off the tree" - Yep! Only difference is
> I don't think it is a good keeper, it loses the wonderful crisp
> texture in 3 or 4 weeks.
AH!!!! TIm, you have given me a very, very good clue. The apples Zeke
sent me, have zip for crisp texture, none (as I mentioned mealy). So the
chances are that I was initially mistaken and the fruit was not fresh
picked. Do you use them in fermenting yourself (which was my goal in
putting the trees in)?
> For me it is actually too strong, I prefer Ashmead's or a full-ripe
> King David, but my wife ranks KdS as her #1 or #2 favorite eating
> apple, depending on the year. The fruit is quite variable in size,
> sometimes very large; frequently heavily russeted; brick-red on the
> sunny side. Tree is vigorous but leggy.
That is how my specimens are turning out as well ...
> My terroir includes a deep sandy loam that is slightly acidic and very
> nutrient-poor, and a climate more like the west coast of England than
> anywhere else in the US. We have cool wet winters with hardly any
> frost, wet springs, long cool summers (daytime highs typically 65 - 70
> F, can't grow stone fruits or nuts at all). I think the cool summers
> make a huge difference in fruit character. Most of my English apples
> are very true to type, except Kingston Black which ripens early rather
> than late, and Harry Masters Jersey, which didn't get enough chill;
> but some French and American varieties do not do so well - apparently
> they expect more heat in summer and cold in winter. Scab is a big
> problem.
>
> The cool summer tilts the balance toward more acid and less sugar, so
> more acidic types (like KdS!) are not good for cider. I sweat my
> cider apples until they start to soften, to drive the acidity down as
> far as possible.
ah!!!
> The climate and/or soil also seems to favor tannin production. (I
> still have a carboy full of cider from last year, made from Porter's
> Perfection, Yarlington Mill, and some Roxburies, that is too tannic to
> drink. I hope to blend it with mead.)
>
> So, my guess is that your summers are too hot for Karmijns.
and perhaps Zeke's are in Vermont as well? (since the apples were
shipped to me from Vermont, in foam gift boxes of 19 apples each, not
bushel lots).
jccampb
> Cheers,
> Tim Bray
> Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Reminder: Cidermaker's Forum at Vintage Virginia Apples Nov. 19th
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:16:03 -0600
I'd like to remind folks that the annual Cidermaker's Forum at Vintage
Virginia Apples near Charlottesville, VA is coming up in a few weeks. It
will be held at the Shelton's orchard and nursery on Nov, 19th this
year.
This year's featured speakers will include:
* Tom Burford (the mid-South's Old Man O'Apples) on cultivar and site
selection and orcharding.
* Diane Flynt of Blue Ridge Cider presenting a number of varietal
sweet ciders for our delight and organoleptic education.
* Charles McGonegal of AEppelTreow Winery with a discussion of some
technical aspects of cider making, chemistry, regulation, marketing and
community.
Charlotte has informed me that the group discussion aspect of the Forum
is cherished, and that I shall _NOT_ be allowed to drone on at length,
presenting slide after slide of mind-numbing details.
(There goes my plan of stupefying the audience, so that I can drink
their share of the ciders being sampled. <sigh>)
Information on the event can be found on the VVA website, which I am
assured will be updated with the latest info Real Soon Now.
I need to disclose at this point, that this is a registration-required
event, and there is a nominal fee which goes towards things like
materials and shipping. Speaking of which, I could use a recommendation
for a source of ground shipping containers that aren't _too_
uncomfortable. Nor airtight, please, or we'll be a speaker short.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1272
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