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Cider Digest #1293
Subject: Cider Digest #1293, 20 January 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1293 20 January 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
pressing pears (Bill)
Grinders and Jons... (Donald Davenport)
Nutrient Management ("Mike Beck")
Job - Cidermaker (Mark Ellis)
Re: Cider Digest #1292, 16 January 2006 (John Bunker)
Re: Cider Digest #1292, 16 January 2006 (John Bunker)
Unhealthy bacteria (Andrew Lea)
good apple brandies (Dick Dunn)
Champagne bottles (Bradley Hunter)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: pressing pears
From: Bill <squeeze@mars.ark.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 22:08:52 -0800
Charles - what you've found is that most pears are not really pressable
w/ the normal rack and cloth equipment past a certain stage of maturity
- - coarser chop, thinner layers, longer/slower press is the only way to
deal w/ dead ripe pears, but even that is 'flogging a dead horse' -
yields are lower and a 'thicker' juice results
BUT, I've found that there is a very short stage when the pears are
still hard enough to chop and press like crisp apples, but are mature
enough to produce full flavored, high sugar juice [european varieties,
not necessarily 'perry pears'], and while some might disagree concerning
fermenting quality of the juice, I do it all the time - most folks think
ripe pears should be "buttery", but when a pear is ripe it is still
crisp, like an apple, and when it gets the buttery texture it has
started decomposition - the cell structure has changed enough to make it
slimey and change the liquid distribution in it
in my experience that stage is about 1-2 days off the tree if picked at
*perfect ripeness*, shorter w/ early varieties, longer w/ the later
"winter" types, and storing the pears cold immediately after picking
sets them up to transition to that softer state faster after removing
from cold storage - very much an experiential thing that has to be
experimented with, and never easy to catch
Bill <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/>
------------------------------
Subject: Grinders and Jons...
From: Donald Davenport <djdavenport@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:27:26 -0700
Hello all--
Two completely unrelated questions.
Grinders--Has anyone had experience with using a SS disposal as a
grinder? Don Yellman first flew the idea here (I think) several years
ago and still swears by it. Does anyone else on the list use one? Is
it a problem if the seeds are macerated as I'm sure they would be? The
price for a new SS unit is about the same as the hand-crank shredders
that HVR and others sell, but I didn't know if there were other
trade-offs. Thumbs up or down?
Jonathans--I've read a couple places that jonathans need to be pressed
immediately after picking because they will begin to develop
off-flavors. Is that an old domestic partner's tale? Would a week or
two of sweating make a difference? I'd prefer to do my pressing all at
once, and I have a couple of varieties that ripen later than the jons.
Thanks,
Don Davenport
------------------------------
Subject: Nutrient Management
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:40:56 -0500
Nutrient & Cider
In regards to last digest.
I do respect and more importantly understand the principles to keeving and
nutrients. However, these ciders are rare both commercially and by the
basement cider maker. (I do not think any were entered in GLOWS) Nutrients
are not just a problem in ciders. Many wines grapes do not carry the
nitrogen needed to get through a unstinky fermentation. This is common
practice for wineries east thru west to enrich some of the finest wines
available with the proper tools(nutrients) for yeast to work with. This is
just the way many common and artisnal wineries operate. Has nothing to do
with tradition. Has more to do with "hold the stinky please".
Dick Writes.... I am surprised that there would be a need for adding
nitrogen for fermentation, since the juice that most amateurs will be able
to get come from heavily fertilized orchards.
I disagree on two points. In Michigan, (I might assume elsewhere)orchards
are not as overfertilized as you might think. Over fertilization affects
tree vigor to much and may even have some affect on return bloom. Vigorous
tree are highly susceptible to fireblite and the extra foliage in the canopy
will deter fruit color. If anything most Michigan orchards under fertilize.
In my own orchard I use a plant growth regulator to slow my tree and its
vigor down. Many will make up deficiencies by using foliar nutrients.
Especially for Boron & Calcium as well as Nitrogen. I have seen no data as
of yet to confirm that orchards soils that have excess nitrogen ever
translate to apples with excess or even a fraction more nitrogen. (please,
someone prove me wrong on that point and I might change my orchard nutrient
program strait away.)
I do not know if a cider that goes through a slow, undernourished
fermentation is better than one that has not. To subjective of a subject. I
am to much of a neophyte to give an opinion. I think both products have
their place in the marketplace. I do know that when people (customers)smell
things like rotten eggs, or burnt matches, or even mousiness that the
majority will reject it and it is hard to get them to even try anything else
than what they know. I realize that a traditionalist may find this
disturbing or unforgivable to use nutrients. However, if your target
audience wants something less traditional than by all means give em what
they want..... I'll have a cider to go, hold the stinky please.
mike beck
st. johns, mi
------------------------------
Subject: Job - Cidermaker
From: Mark Ellis <mark@zymurgia.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:11:26 +1100
G'day All,
Say this today in my trawling on the net;
http://www.winebusiness.com/services/jobdetail.cfm?jobid=6322
Cheers
Mark E. in Oz
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1292, 16 January 2006
From: John Bunker <jbunker@gwi.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:54:42 -0500
Re: Harrison: Thanks to everyone who contributed information on the
Harrison apple. I will get it going in Maine this spring. We'll get a
picture of its hardiness in the nest few years.
John Bunker
*****
John Bunker
Fedco
P.O. Box 520
Waterville ME 04903
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1292, 16 January 2006
From: John Bunker <jbunker@gwi.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:55:09 -0500
Cider Workshop
Sponsored by The Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association (MOFGA)
Sunday February 26, 2006
11:30 AM to 6:00 PM
Fore Street Restaurant
288 Fore St., Portland, Maine (corner of Fore and Franklin)
Fee: $50.00 per person
Workshop leaders will include
Ben Watson, author of Cider, Hard and Sweet
Steve Wood, Farnum Hill Ciders, Lebannon NH
Topics to include:
Raw fresh sweet cider: the laws and the risks
Fermenting cider: how to and how not to
Apple varieties for fermented cider
Cider styles: different styles and how to create them
Trouble shooting fermented cider problems
Critiqued tasting of commercial and home-made ciders
Distilling cider and other commercial possibilities
Pressing cider in central Maine: the need for a centralized public press
Bring your cider to share and critique.
For more information or to sign up, please call MOFGA 568-4142
Sponsored by the Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association
Optional Dinner(6:00 PM):
There will be a dinner at Fore Street restaurant following the workshop. If
enough of us sign up, we will have our own private dinning room in which to
continue discussions over dinner. To place a dinner reservation, please
call Fore Street restaurant (775-2717) and tell them you are part of the
Cider Workshop group. Dinners at Fore Street begin at about $30.00. A meal
with wine will be about $50.00
------------------------------
Subject: Unhealthy bacteria
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:09:50 +0000
Hal wrote:
> Are there any unhealthy bacteria that can get into the cider?
>
Yes pathogenic bacteria can of course get in but they cannot grow and
indeed are killed quite quickly by the low pH and the high alcohol
levels. E.coli, Salmonella and Clostridia have all been shown not to
grow in (hard) cider. That's why cider, beer and wine were
traditionally safer to drink than plain water in the 'olden days'.
> In biology classes, the professor can take a sample of food and put it in
> a plastic dish, and we can watch the bacteria multiply in a few weeks.
>
Of course but there you have an enriched neutral pH medium which is
ideal for the growth of most bacteria and indeed is deliberately
designed to do so.
> Cider contains lots of sugars that the bacteria could eat. I rack the lees by
> sucking the cider through a tube. Unhealthy bacteria could get into the cider
> from the air or my lips. Vinegar-producing bacteria is able to survive the
> low alcohol content (Although not my sulfite!). What are your ideas on this?
Hard cider may or may not contain some sugar but the acid and the
alcohol are severely inhibitory to most bacteria. There are two
specialised groups which can grow in this environment, though - one
being the 'lactic acid bacteria' responsible for the malo-lactic change
and the other being the 'acetobacter' which are responsible for vinegar.
The latter actually metabolise the alcohol itself and turn it into
acetic acid / vinegar. Neither of these bacteria are harmful to human
health. Any bacteria from your lips will swiftly die in cider.
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK.
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: good apple brandies
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:51:40 -0700
"Hal Smith" <rakovsky@excite.com> wrote in the last digest:
> We've done a good job establishing that there are no decent US commercial
> ciders...
WHOA there, podner!
I think the best we've established is that there are some pretty weak
mass-market (nationally distributed) ciders. Even those are popular in
a wine-cooler sort of way, just not particularly interesting as ciders.
There are many very good US commercial ciders, but they only have local or
regional distribution.
>...But are there any good quality mass-produced US/British apple
> brandies? Lairds?
Laird's is to apple brandy what Strongbow is to cider. Sorry, but that's
actually a sensible comparison: Strongbow is made with more sugar-water
than apple. Laird's is made with more "neutral spirits" (meaning
otherwise-tasteless alcohol not derived from apples) than apple brandy.
For neutral spirits, think grain alcohol or simple vodka. The back-label
of Laird's gives it as 35% from apples, 65% neutral spirit. It has some
character of the apple, but not much.
I don't know of any true cider brandies made in the US, but it seems from
comments here, particularly from Charles McGonegal, that there must be some
in the near offing.
There are two UK cider brandies I know of: Somerset Cider Brandy is
produced by Julian Temperley in Somerset, who is otherwise noted for Burrow
Hill Cider. "King Offa" is (?was?) produced in association with the
Herefordshire Cider Museum. Of the two, personally I think Somerset Cider
Brandy is far better. But it's not available in the US (although I keep
hoping!).
There are various brands of Calvados (French cider brandy) available in the
US. They vary in character and quality, but I'm not going to get into my
personal preferences here. Suffice to say, the Somerset Cider Brandy is
entirely different from Calvados, at least any Calvados I've ever had. I
characterize it as a clarity of taste. Calvados always strikes me as a bit
muddled or out-of-focus, whereas the taste components of Somerset Cider
Brandy are very clear and straightforward.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Champagne bottles
From: Bradley Hunter <hunter@midcoast.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:54:29 -0500
I know that a few weeks after New Years Day is a great time to visit
the local bottle redemption center to collect some cheap champagne
bottles.
I was in search of domestic bottles that would take a crown cap as
opposed to a wired stopper and I did find several cases that definitely
take the crown caps. The only problem (?) is that these are all
non-alcohol sparkling
grape drinks.
My question is whether the carbonation level in these NA drinks
approach the same levels as in true Champagnes and , more specifically,
is the wall thickness of these bottles the same?
I believe Champagne bottles can hold around 6 atmospheres of pressure.
This brings me to Part 2 of my question.
I want to bottle about 5 gal. of this fall's 45 gal. pressing as
sparkling cider.
Unlike lots of postings on the Digest I'm not looking for a sweet
sparkling product.
It started out with an OG of 1.088 and seven weeks later has finished
at .996 and I'd be very happy with a bone dry cider with med.-med. high
carbonation levels.
Coming from a beer brewing back ground I'm used to bulk priming 5 gal.
batches with 1/2 to 3/4 cup corn sugar in a syrup form.
Could I simply follow this same procedure?
With some of my long aged beers where I'm unsure there is sufficient
yeast left in suspension to carbonate the brew I've also added a
neutral yeast at bottling time along with the priming sugar.
Would this be advisable, too / perhaps just a packet of dry champagne
yeast?
FYI the original fermentation was split between a Cotes de Blanc
(Epernay II) and a Lalvin D-47.
Thanks for any advice,
Brad
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End of Cider Digest #1293
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