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Cider Digest #1274
Subject: Cider Digest #1274, 8 November 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1274 8 November 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
sweet 16 (Bob Sorenson)
Re: query submission (Benjamin Phillips) (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: query submission (Marc Shapiro)
query submission ("John Howard")
Wish I'd had... (Tim Bray)
Benjamin Phillips's Cider question (Tim Bray)
BJCP Mead & Cider Judging Forms ("David Houseman")
Auction - Berlin Orchards, MA (Sat Nov 5) ("drcath@tiac.net")
apple blend and apple ID (Bradley Hunter)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: sweet 16
From: Bob Sorenson <natvwine@cut.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 21:20:30 -0700
Today while munching I put a couple of drops of sweet 16 juice on my
spectrometer and it read 16.5%.
Not a good keeper though.
Anybody higher this year? What variety?
Bob Sorenson
www.nativewines.net
------------------------------
Subject: Re: query submission (Benjamin Phillips)
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 23:36:42 -0500
In Cider Digest #1273, Benjamin Phillips wrote:
>This is a question I would like to submit for the discussion of readers:
>Here's the frightening development. Since then (about one week has elapsed)
>the balloon, rather than filling with gas, began to bulge down and withdraw
>INTO the jug. It appears that rather than off-gassing, the cider is
>consuming the available air. The balloon is being drawn down into the
>resultant vacuum.
I would think the balloon is being drawn into the jug because of a decrease
of temperature (at lower temperature, density of air increases, so volume
decreases) while fermentation still hasn't started.
I would see 2 possible options:
1- wait until natural fermentation starts (you may heat the room slightly
to hasten the process)
2- inoculate with yeast
Claude Jolicoeur
------------------------------
Subject: Re: query submission
From: Marc Shapiro <mshapiro_42@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 22:51:45 -0800
Benjamin Phillips <phillips3@gmail.com> said:
<SNIP>
> My own notions: could fermentation be delayed by the fact that I have not
> yet turned on my heat for the winter, and the cider has therefore been kept
> pretty cold? (This still cannot explain the vacuum.) Could the
> air-consumption be a contamination issue? Does it have anything to do with
> my using unpasteurized cider, and not adding any sugar or yeast? If I do
> this again, should I use sugar (or raisins, as I'd prefer)? If it's still
> edible, can or should I add raisins now, or is it too late? Any advice,
> explanations or hypotheses would be greatly appreciated.
> And a PS question: Let me jump the gun and assume that I've got some kind of
> insane microbial contamination on my hands. Can I heat or boil the cider for
> a while to kill off the bad stuff, toss in a campden tablet, and add my own
> yeast, and thereby avoid throwing away my materials? I've read accounts of
> people skimming off mold and getting fermentation started, yielding safe,
> edible results. Thanks for your help, everybody.
Yes, to all of the above.
You haven't turned on the heat in your house yet, so it is still cool,
but the juice was probably warm when it went into the jug. That meant
that the air in the jug was warm, and has since cooled to room
temperature. As the air cools, just like anything else, it contracts
and takes up less volume, hence, the balloon is drawn inward.
Unpasturized juice is not, in and of itself, a problem. Nor is the lack
of additional sugar. Not adding yeast IS a problem. The liklyhood of
your cider getting off to a good start on its own, in a cool room, while
not non-existant, is certainly very low. A slightly warm must (juice)
and an active starter of yeast will go a long way toward a good
fermentation.
Your juice is probably not contaminated. If it is contaminated then it
is unlikely enough to be a problem.
What I would do is to pour the juice out into a large pot and heat it to
about 180 F. If you want to add sugar (I wouldn't, unless you want
apple wine instead of cider), or a few raisins (not too much, maybe a
handful or two), this would be the time to do it. You don't need to
maintain this temperature for more than a minute, or so. Cover the pot
and turn the heat off and remove the pot from the burner. Allow the
cider to cool to between 100 F and 104 F.
Put 4 ounces of water (104 F) into a glass and sprinkle a wine, or
cider, yeast (not bakers' yeast, if you can avoid it) on top of the
water. After 10 to fifteen minutes add 4 ounces of the warm apple juice
and gently mix it in. Let this sit until you can see active, steady
fermentaion. It should be noticeable, bubbles should be visible and
creating a froth on the top. Pour the juice from the pot back into your
fermentation jug. If it splashes while pouring, this is OK. Right now,
oxygen is your friend. You can even shake the jucie around in the
bottle to add extra oxygen. This will encourage yeast growth. Add the
yeast starter to the bottle and put on a new balloon (an airlock would
be better, if you can get it).
Keep the cider in a warm place for at least a day, until fermentation in
the bottle is steady. The balloon should be inflating, or bubbles
should be coming through the air lock. At this time, if the room is a
little cool, not cold, it should not be a problem. This will encourage
a longer, slower fermentation which should retain more of the apple
character in the finished cider.
Now is the time to sit back, relax, and let the yeast do their thing.
HTH
- --
Marc Shapiro
mshapiro_42@yahoo.com
------------------------------
Subject: query submission
From: "John Howard" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:39:36 -0500
Caul, Here's my hypothesis. I think you have constructed a barometer. And
that you did it on a low atmospheric pressure day (was it overcast & warm?)
and you are observing the inverted balloon on a high pressure day
(sunny/brisk?).
Soon your cider will start to ferment and fill the balloon to bursting,
hopefully before that happens you will have devised a better air lock.
John Howard
Philadelphia
------------------------------
Subject: Wish I'd had...
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:12:18 -0800
The recent exchange with John Campbell (about Karmijn deSonnaville)
highlighted the shortage of useful, detailed information available to
would-be cider orchardists in America. We both wish we had known then what
we know now... could have saved us a lot of time and money spent on
unproductive trees. I spent a lot of time researching before planting,
read literally everything I could find on the subject... yet still I was
forced to guess and take chances with most of the cider cultivars. Seven
years later, the picture is a lot clearer!
I have tried out 64 different apple cultivars here on the Mendocino
Coast. It has a climate like few places in North America, as I have
described before: wet, mild winters; long, dry, cool summers. It differs
from most apple _terroirs_ in having almost no frost in winter (much less
spring!), and little heat in summer. Almost everything written about apple
cultivars in the US and Canada is largely irrelevant - I never get late
spring frosts, sunburn is never a problem, etc. Conversely, the
information I needed (chill hours, ability to ripen fruit in cool weather,
scab resistance) was generally unavailable for cider varieties.
Now, several years on, it is clear that about 15 of those 64 varieties were
really worth planting here. I should rework about half my orchard, but
it's a daunting task... sure wish I'd known then what I know now!
I've really enjoyed the discussions we have here about how various apples
perform in different regions. So, perhaps we should start some kind of
cooperative effort to bring together all the experience us Digesters
have. It might help others avoid expensive mistakes, or it might just be
for our own amusement... It occurs to me that the Wiki-thingy might be one
way to do this, but I have no idea how to set one of those up. Anyone out
there who does?
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: Benjamin Phillips's Cider question
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:08:26 -0800
I sent this reply directly to Ben, since Dick said the next Digest may have
to wait until he recovers from the Cider Day hangover. (Something like
that.) But I think there is much here to discuss, and I eagerly await
Andrew's insight about the vacuum effect.
Ben,
I think what you may have going on is the oxygen in the air getting
consumed by the juice (it's not cider yet!). This is a potential problem,
because dissolved oxygen in the juice will allow mold growth. You really
don't want that! I do recommend adding a Campden tablet - crush it and
dissolve it in a little water, then pour it onto the surface of the juice,
but don't stir it in. This will kill off any mold that may have started to
grow on the surface, and it might kill off bacteria there, too. Hopefully
it will also stun that film-forming yeast on the surface... I wouldn't
heat-pasteurize except as a last resort.
What you do next depends on what you want to accomplish, and how much you
want to futz with it. If you want a spontaneous ferment with wild yeast,
just sit back and wait. If you don't care, get some yeast (Lalvin D-47 is
great for cider, but ale yeast will work) and pitch it after a few days.
If you go the spontaneous route, or if you want to try and make really good
cider, I recommend waiting at least two weeks after adding the sulfite, and
watch for a sudden sedimentation. When the solids settle out and the juice
goes clear, rack it into a new jug, and then pitch yeast (or not). I have
waited over a month for my cider to start a spontaneous fermentation this way.
Now for the bad news: It's possible that Acetobacter (vinegar-forming
bacteria) or Lactobacillus (souring bacteria) are already at work
converting sugar directly to acetic or lactic acids. This process consumes
oxygen, so it might be causing the vacuum effect. If that's the case, the
cider is already going sour and there is no way to save it. Problem is it
can be difficult to determine whether that's what is happening. You could
try tasting it, but might not detect the sourness over the sweetness of the
fresh juice. What I would do is go ahead and ferment as above, then taste
the resulting cider - if it is sour, then just put the jug outside
somewhere and take the balloon off, and let it go to vinegar. After a few
weeks or months, you will have a jug of really good cider vinegar!
Cheers.
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: BJCP Mead & Cider Judging Forms
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 07:50:30 -0500
The BJCP will be updating the Beer, Mead and Cider judging forms now in wide
use. Primarily we are targeting changing the formatting so that there is
consistency among the forms, appropriate contact information, and an ability
to more easily customize these forms for competitions. However, we would
appreciate input from the Mead and Cider groups, as domain experts, on any
functional content changes that you would recommend to make these more
relevant to your competitions. Please send these to me over the next two
weeks so we can include your thoughts into this revision.
Thanks,
David Houseman
BJCP Competition Director
david.houseman@verizon.net
------------------------------
Subject: Auction - Berlin Orchards, MA (Sat Nov 5)
From: "drcath@tiac.net" <drcath@tiac.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:01:56 -0500
Did anyone attend the auction in Berlin, MA on Cider Day 11/5? I couldn't
make it and sure would love to hear a report of the day's events Thanks,
Dave
drcath@tiac?net
------------------------------
Subject: apple blend and apple ID
From: Bradley Hunter <hunter@midcoast.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:30:17 -0500
I've just collected the last of my apple mix for this season's
pressing, about 18 bushels total.
In descending order of quantity starting at about 2-3 bushel of single
variety down to just a few of each:
Golden Russet
Baldwin
Tolman Sweet
Kidd's Orange Red
Northern Spy
Lady
Jonathan
Belle de Boskoop
Unknown high tannin green variety
&
token amount of:
Dabinett
Ashton Bitter
Kingston Black
Chisel Jersey
Yarlington Mill
Somerset Redstreak
Harry Master's Jersey
Sweet Alfred (Alford?)
False Chisel
Foxwhelp
Ellis Bitter
The odds and ends of the old English Cider varieties were leftover from
an Apple Day demonstration and I thought it would be fun to add them to
the greater mix, however small their actual contribution.
I also wanted to try them since I've grafted all of the above varieties
onto tough Antanovka rootstock, though they won't be producing for a
while. I choose these based on their reputations but I'd never actually
bitten into most of them!
The unknown high tannin green variety is an apple I've picked from a
100 yr. old neighboring orchard and used in previous pressings so,
although I have no idea what it is, I've liked what it's done for the
blend in the past.
The Kidd's Orange Red is new to my mix , this year, having just
discovered it in another old orchard.
Truthfully, I'm guessing at it's actual varietal name, basing my guess
on research and comparative drawings from the Roger Yepsen book,
Apples. This is a cross between Cox's Orange Pippin and Red Delicious
and was introduced in New Zealand in 1924. How likely is it that this
variety would be found in a New England orchard
( I'm in midcoast Maine) and how appropriate is it as a cider addition?
If I've misidentified the variety , although the picture in the book
and the description seem very close, what else might it be?
Thanks,
Brad
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1274
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