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Cider Digest #1296
Subject: Cider Digest #1296, 29 January 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1296 29 January 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
RE: Grundy Tanks ("McGonegal, Charles")
Off flavors in fermentations ("McGonegal, Charles")
An alternate cider forum ("McGonegal, Charles")
RE:distillation equipment and literature ("Pat Maloney")
More Champagne bottles...... ("Ray Blockley")
Distillation Literature ("Mike Beck")
Cider brady and grundy tanks (Terence Bradshaw)
Olde Tyme Cider Distillation Notes (yes, I know it's not quite cider :- ("...)
Grundy Tanks ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Malolactic Bacteria (Bradley Hunter)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Grundy Tanks
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:27:11 -0600
John,
GW Kent just started offering a carbonation tank that they are
specifically targetting for sparkling wine and cider. The 270 gallon
version is a modest $9000. (I'm rounding - don't quote me exactly)
Watch 'grundies' - the fine print says they aren't pressure capable. I
think most producers carbonate at very low temps and pressures. I
happened to pick up a syrup tank from a Coke pilot plant - rated to
75psig. I can go to 2 volumes CO2 in that without needing a glycol
chilling system.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Off flavors in fermentations
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:38:07 -0600
For the interest of the Digest,
I just got around to reading my backlog of winery rags. The Nov/Dev
Practical Winery and Vineyard has a lovely article on - you guessed it -
sulfide production in fermentations. Most interestingly, the authors
were not able to correlate H2S production with any conbination of strain
or nutrient levels. They found that some strains (bred _and_ wild) tend
high and some tend low. That typically high-H2S strains can be made to
lower (or increase) H2S levels by either raising _OR_ lowering nitrogen
levels. Or vitamin levels. And the same was true for normally low-H2S
strains.
And they noted post-fermentation h2S production from the lees for a
variety of suspected reasons. Apparently de-alcoholized wines (shudder)
and screw-tops wines run into trouble with this.
So it looks like art and experience triumph over science!
[For now...]
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: An alternate cider forum
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:52:10 -0600
In the wake of the GLOWS / Competition criticism and improvement
discussions, I'd like to announce the creation of a web-based forum for
cidermakers.
I've created a network / collaboration oriented website, and would like
to invite commercial producers, near commercial and serious
non-commercial cidermakers and our friends and advocates to join and
register.
I've called the site the 'Craft Cider Network' and the URL is
http://cider.appletrue.com
My goal is to host a site focused on the needs and concerns of Industry
Members (in TTB lingo):
1) Discussions: sharing experience on what growing and production
practices work well (or don't), how can we improve our
production/testing/marketing/sales skills, equipment and vendor
successes and follies, dealing with regulations and regulators,
marketing and selling our ware, etc.
2) Library: to start a collection of documents (PDFs, clippings, old
articles, etc) of useful and/or rare cider information that is readily
accessible.
3) Polls: to conduct quick surveys to get information on we, as a
community, are thinking.
4) Collaboration and Networking: share information about cider-related
events and tasks that we might pool our talents and energies to achieve.
5) Centralized resource for PR: provide a place for producers to post
news, events and commercial information that is easy for outside
observers (like journalists) to locate.
The software platform I've selected allows the creation of blogs, and
forum-like discussions, as well as file uploading, mini-web creation
Wiki-style and polls. It also has calendar and group task management
features. Since it's a social networking platform, it even takes shy
folks into consideration - registrants can enter two sets of personal
info, and have a public face, and a private one. Likewise, content
entered can be published publically, or only your chosen network
associates.
I've created the basic framework, and started dicussions and polls
relating to capturing the competition improvement discussion, and to
illustrate the basic capabilities of the system. I hope to shake out a
consensus on some improvements that we can feed back to the GLOWS
organizers - and others. I've also created some placeholders to hold
some of Gary Awdey's cider education initiative info. There is a guest
login available for the casual observer, too.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: RE:distillation equipment and literature
From: "Pat Maloney" <pmaloney@callatg.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:27:09 -0800
In Cider Digest #1295, pete elderkin asks:
< does anyone have information or literature equipment on cider or mash
distilation.
For commercial operators (and for anyone fortunate enough to live in a
country that doesn't care if you want to remove the water from wine, beer or
cider in small quantities), there are a couple of books that might be of
value to you:
"MAKING GIN & VODKA - A Professional Guide for Amateur Distillers" by John
Stone, 1997. Includes discussion of equipment and techniques to produce
small quantities of pure ethyl alcohol from simple "beer" made from yeast,
sugar and water. Could apply to distillation of other alcoholic beverages
such as wine, beer or cider. http://www.gin-vodka.com/
"THE ALASKAN BOOTLEGGER'S BIBLE - Makin' beer, wine, liqueurs and moonshine
whiskey: an old Alaskan tells how it's done" - by Leon W. Kania, 2000.
Exactly what it says! Lots of recipes. Good details on pot still
techniques. http://www.happymountain.net/
Pat
------------------------------
Subject: More Champagne bottles......
From: "Ray Blockley" <rayblockley@ntlworld.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:54:24 -0000
Subject: More Champagne bottles......
From: Bradley Hunter <hunter@midcoast.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 17:13:50 -0500
*snip*
"I did not receive any advice on my proposed priming technique to obtain
a med. to med-high carbonation in my dry .996 cider. Would a 1/2 -
3/4 cup of corn sugar boiled in a pint of water for a 5 gal. batch be
appropriate? Not looking for sweetness, just some bubbles. Would it
hurt to add a packet of dry wine yeast at bottling time, too?"
Hi Brad,
To be safe, you should go by Specific Gravity measured with your
hydrometer, after adding your priming sugar. Make up your stock sugar
solution, allow it to cool to blood temperature and add this bit-by-bit
to the bulk of the cider, checking the SG at regular intervals. If you
just want some fizz and bubbles then an SG of around 1.005 should
suffice.
If your cider is already clear and stable, then it would make sense to
add a working Champagne yeast culture at the same time as the priming
sugar solution. The granular nature of Champagne yeasts means they tend
to settle out easier, particularly if you are going down the pupitre and
remuage route. Make sure the Champagne yeast is working; a dried yeast
just 'bunged in' may stay dormant, being inhibited by the already
present alcohol.
However, if you want to go 'the whole hog' and end up with seriously
fizzy Champagne-style cider, then your target is a gas pressure of about
4 atmospheres (55psi (uk-style psi!)). Adding 15 - 16 grammes per litre
will give you this pressure (about 70 grammes per "Imperial" UK gallon)
BUT this assumes all residual fermentable sugars within the cider have
been used up. You can see that to avoid making explosive
glass-fragmentation devices you need some pretty accurate chemistry...
New, unused Champagne bottles are supposed to be able to withstand about
8 atmospheres of pressure, but obviously used bottles will have been
stressed, possibly scratched and chipped which may well weaken them, so
to add a maximum of 16 grammes of sugar per litre is sensibly playing
safe.
A little bit of Health and Safety advice if you are going for the full
fizz:
a.. check the bottles carefully against a light-source for scratches
and chips
b.. hold the bottles by the thicker neck rather than the thinner body
c.. hold them away from your face
Good luck. Have fun.
Ray.
Hucknall,
England.
------------------------------
Subject: Distillation Literature
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:26:00 -0500
For Pete Elderkin:
I do not know what kind of literature you are looking for? I'll try to give
you everything I know of:
American Research: Kris Berglund - Michigan State University -
berglund@msu.edu
Trade Magazine: Distilling.com
Still Manufacturers: Christian Carl - Vendome - Arnold Holstein - Oregon
Copper Works - Forsyth's, plus, GW Kent & Criveller Canada also distributes
stills. I think if you googled any of those names you'll get info on all of
them. I use a christian carl (150litre) and own a 20 gal vendome (never
used it, for sale) I know there are more out there. Charles Mcgonegal has
one that I can not recall the name. I am sure my list is not complete.
Legal Stuff: TTB.gov Remember distilling requires a basic federal permit.
There is also good material out there published in french & german. I can
not say how good they are as I do not know any other language. Others
lurking on the digest surely would have others sources of info.
mike beck
st. john's, mi
------------------------------
Subject: Cider brady and grundy tanks
From: Terence Bradshaw <tblists@pshift.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:09:18 -0500
Apple Brandies:
Flag Hill Cider in Vershire, VT makes an eau du vie from their cider, as
well as a pear product made from Bartlett/Williams.. I haven't tried
either, and they are only available in VT. See www.flaghillfarm.com
>Subject: Grundy Tanks for cider
>From: john brett <jbrett@eastlink.ca>
>Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:47:10 -0400
>
>Wondering if anyone out there has experience with using stainless steel
>grundy tanks for carbonating cider. They are generally available and quite
>reasonably priced on the used market.
> It occurrs to me that it might even be possible to use them to do a
>charmat method naturally sparkling cider. Does anyone have information on
>the safe working pressure rating for these kind of tanks?
John, I wonder if you're talking about what we call 'corny' kegs. These
are the five-gallon, cylindrical tanks usually used to dispense soda. I
can't really say that I use them specifically for carbonating, but they
work for that and are an indispensable tool for my needs. I picked up a
kegging system a couple of years ago to serve beer at my wedding party.
I sprang for the tank, regulator, and two kegs. At the time I was
working at a bar and the owner started kicking me a soda keg every week
or two and by the wedding I was up to six. We served four beers and two
ciders and had a helluva time, but I digress.
Since then, I have collected fourteen of them. I use them for
transporting sweet cider from the mill, as they do not break like
carboys. I use them for secondary, especially when fermenting in
plastic. The main reason I acquired so many was to rack off a 55 gallon
barrel. I also use them for bulk aging, as well as serving. I don't
intentionally carbonate but I apply 10-20 psi to seal the lid, then
bleed off. When on tap, I use a shutoff to keep pressure out of the
system unless I'm pouring. The cider does pick up a little sparkle, but
not much. I haven't made the push to a nitro system.
Kegs can also be used to filter in a closed system. Two kegs can be
daisy chained by connecting the 'out' tube to the 'in' tube of a second
keg with a canister filter between the two. The second keg is
pressurized (say at 30 psi) before connecting the two together. Then
the first keg is pressurized at 15 psi. CO2 can then be bled out of the
receiving keg until the flow starts...this is basically a
counterpressure system. If multiple filters are used I could even see
it possible to make a naturally sweet, sparkling cider this way...Maybe
I'll try it this year.
I guess my point is, whether or not you'll be using them for force
carbonation, five-gallon soda kegs are a wonderful all-around tool in
the cidery.
Terry B
================
Terence Bradshaw
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
tblists@pshift.com
(802)229-2004
1450 feet, zone 4A/B?
The views represented are mine and mine only........
------------------------------
Subject: Olde Tyme Cider Distillation Notes (yes, I know it's not quite cider :-
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:35:10 -0600
I just got my hands on a reprinted 1870s American book on distillation,
and it has a few words to say about cider brandy, which it notes
could/should be a premier American distillate.
I found its discussion of the cider portion more interesting than the
distillation bit. It says that standard practice is (was) for the
farmers to sort the harvested apples by age/ripeness and press the
oldest first. And that fermentation should complete in 6-12 _days_.
(This is the 8th edition, first printed in 1875.) It says nothing about
pitching with leavening, as it does for some other distillates.
It goes on to note that cider fermented from juice is better in quality
than that fermented on the pomace. And in any case, don't try to
distill the pomace - bite the bullet and press it out. I had to look up
'empyreumatic' and wanted to strangle the website that gave the
definition as 'having the character of ''empyreuma''. Meaning it gets a
funny, scorched taste, supposedly peculiar to burning in a closed
vessel. The book suggested filling the still half-2/3 with water and
bringing it to a boil _before_ adding the pomace if you insisted on that
approach, but the result would be inferior regardless.
And that's about all it says before going on to wax eloquent about peach
brandy.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Grundy Tanks
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 23:41:25 -0800
We use a three barrel (108 gallon) Grundy tank to carbonate our cider prior
to bottling. It works well. The rating on the tank is 45 PSI. The manhole
cover on the top of the tank was modified to incorporate a pressure gauge
and a CO2 inlet to blow the tank. In addition a 1 1/2" tri-clamp fitting was
welded on the manhole cover for a cleaning, venting etc attachment. There is
a 1 1/2" tri-clamp drain on the bottom of the tank to which is attach an
inline carbonation unit, think basic SS plumbing fittings not a fancy custom
made unit. The tank is filled with cider at about 5# PSI of CO2. As the
cider is chilled the pressure increased to about 20 PSI over a 48-60 hour
period. If you are using gravity feed filler the PSI can be increased a bit
to compensate for the loss during bottling.
I assume that if you kept the pressure at something less than 30 PSI you
could use the tank for fermentation. I think there are others that could
advise you on this having never tried it. I would be interested in finding a
7 barrel tank of the same configuration, so if you know of a source please
pass it on.
------------------------------
Subject: Malolactic Bacteria
From: Bradley Hunter <hunter@midcoast.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:43:49 -0500
I purchased a dry pack of Malolactic bacteria described as ' Enoferm
Alpha' from the Wine, Wine & More Wine
Catalog. I thought this was a good choice as it was reported to ferment
at lower temperatures and lower ph levels and would tolerate high
levels of SO2.
In addition to cider making I also grow a dozen different French Hybrid
wine varieties so between the two I figured I could experiment with a
carboy or two of inoculated ML bacteria in both wine and cider and
leave some on the lees to, perhaps, let MLF naturally occur.
After receiving my foil sealed ( and I assume nitrogen flushed) dry
pack of Enoferm Alpha bacteria, a new catalog arrived and , missing
from the catalog I'd ordered from, this time there was a note that "You
cannot store Malolactic bacteria once the package has been opened"!
The package size was good for up to 66 gal. and, at most, I currently
have only about 10 gal. that I'm interested in inoculating.
My question is whether I should wait until next season when I will have
more grape wine and cider filled carboys suitable for inoculation ?
However, I'm unsure of the shelf life of these bacteria despite the
fact that they are still factory sealed and have been refrigerated. Any
thoughts?
If I did break into the foil pack for a partial use, could I safely
reseal the remainder with a commercial grade vacuum sealer I have and
still expect to have any viable bacteria left?
If I did wait to use this, like older yeast packets, should I step up
the inoculation rate to compensate for the decreased viability or is
there a problem in ' over pitching ' ML bacteria? If I did, how much of
a step up?
Is it simply brief contact with air that would render the bacteria
useless in storage?
Thanks for any advice,
Brad
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1296
*************************
