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Cider Digest #1268
Subject: Cider Digest #1268, 18 October 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1268 18 October 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: long(er)-term storage in SS kegs? (dirkblaze@aol.com)
Storage in SS (Andrew Lea)
SS Kegs (John Emmett)
sskegs (Derek Bisset)
Cider in "Corny" Kegs ("Bob Capshew")
Re: long(er)-term storage in SS kegs? ("Gary Awdey")
Re: storage in SS (Bill)
More stainless kegs (Bradley Hunter)
RE: long(er)-term storage in SS kegs? (chaad@aol.com)
Stainless Cooperage ("McGonegal, Charles")
Re: long(er)-term storage in SS kegs? ("Dennis Henry")
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Subject: Re: long(er)-term storage in SS kegs?
From: dirkblaze@aol.com
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:34:12 -0400
>Does anybody have actual experience keeping cider in stainless "corny" kegs
>for longer periods than just enough to dispense the cider? Let's say a few
>months up to a year. Specifically, is there any tendency toward pitting in
>the keg or any other difficulty because of the acidity of the cider?
>
>I have a couple of ciders I've kept in glass as they age, but they are
>ready to start drinking. I'd like to free up the glass for this fall's
>cider, and I'd just as soon have the older ciders ready to serve, if it's
>OK to keep them in SS that long.
Yes, I've kept cider in ss kegs for longer than a year. No worries!
In fact, I fermentin them, blend in them, age in them, fine in them and
serve from them!
Bruce Kahn
west chester, pa
------------------------------
Subject: Storage in SS
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:44:29 +0100
Dick Dunn wrote:
>
> Does anybody have actual experience keeping cider in stainless "corny" kegs
> for longer periods than just enough to dispense the cider? Let's say a few
> months up to a year. Specifically, is there any tendency toward pitting in
> the keg or any other difficulty because of the acidity of the cider?
Yes I have stored ciders in genuine Cornelius kegs for at least a year
on occasions, usually after priming to get a secondary fermentation. I
have then chilled them in the fridge and transferred them to plastic
kegs for dispense (I don't have a Cornelius dispense system). (There's
nothing magic about the year timescale - just stuff I didn't get around
to drinking sooner!). I've never been able to detect any particular off
flavours (except a slightly sulphidic note attributable to autolysed
yeast) and there is no sign at all of pitting.
My Corny kegs were inherited from Long Ashton Research Station and are
at least 30 years old. They originally formed part of our small scale
fermentation system (the kegs were held in a thermostatted water bath to
allow yeast experiments etc to be adequately replicated.). So if they
were considered good enough for experimental use they ought to be good
enough for anything! Also I believe they are used for cola syrup
dispense systems whose pH is well below 3 (though the phosphoric acid
typically used in colas is arguably kinder to stainles steel than malic).
I suppose my only caveat is whether all kegs are created equal. That
is, are they all made of 316 stainless (as I presume mine are) or are
some of a lesser grade depending on the application. My kegs are called
'Spartan' -I don't know whether that refers to steel grade, size or
whatever.
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: SS Kegs
From: John Emmett <jlemmett@iinet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:28:49 -0700
Dick,
I routinely use SS kegs or tanks for my cider. I have a large variety
of them, 2.5, 5, 10, and 15 gal which are all just upscale versions of
the of the standard 5 gal soft drink syrup tanks (corny kegs). For the
5 gal tanks, I purchase used syrup tanks from the bottlers in the area
usually for $15 each. When using used tanks I take them completely
apart and boil out all the pieces and replace all o-rings (tank lid
o-ring and the o-rings on the quick disconnects) and I replace the
spring loaded closure piece in the tank plugs as it contains plastics
also. It is never possible to clean the plastic parts well enough to
remove years of flavor impregnation from the syrups, and it does get
into the cider. Parts for every conceivable tank are available from
Foxx Equipment Company (foxxequipment.com).
I ferment in these tanks, I rack from tank to tank, I carbonate in
these tanks, I store cider in these tanks for periods up to three years
with no corrosion (Coke syrup is far more acidic and corrosive than
cider!), I dispense from a 2.5 gal tank in a second refrigerator for my
own use. When I rack from one of these tanks I put in a shortened dip
tube that does not reach the tank bottom. In using these tanks I
always prefill them with gaseous CO2 prior to the juice or cider to
eliminate air contact, use CO2 to push the cider from one tank to
another (thus no pumps), and store cider in them for long periods with
an initial over-pressure of CO2 of about 15 psi , and store at room
temperature. Prior to long term storage of cider in a tank, I
sterilize the tank with a standard Iodophor solution. Stainless steel
is the way to go. I would not use anything else, and I have tried
everything else over the years.
Let me emphasize again that you must replace all of the plastic parts
of a used tank first, or you will ruin some good cider. I hope that
this helps.
John
John L. Emmett
22721 NE 123rd Circle
Brush Prairie, WA 98606
Tel: 360-260-5277
Fax: 360-260-5557
jlemmett@iinet.com
------------------------------
Subject: sskegs
From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@shaw.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:21:02 -0700
I have had cider in stanless steel cornelius kegs and beer kegs for up
to three years with no sign of ill effects to either. The cider is fine
and I can see no evidence of damage to the kegs.
Far from worrying about the kegs I would prefer to store cider under
pressure in them as opposed to having the possibility of oxygenation in
poorly sealed other types of container . If they are under pressure , I
know the seal is good !
That said, I have tried cider in an oak ex-wine barrel for a few months
recently with "Gee. That's nice" results from friends . Maybe those
Somerset farmers are up to something when they use old scotch barrels.
------------------------------
Subject: Cider in "Corny" Kegs
From: "Bob Capshew" <rcapshew@epowerc.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:59:50 -0400
Dick,
I've kept cider in "corny" kegs to age when I've been out
of carboy space with no ill effects on the keg or cider. I
would recommend keeping some CO2 in the keg to prevent oxidation.
Bob Capshew
------------------------------
Subject: Re: long(er)-term storage in SS kegs?
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:48:16 -0400
In CD#1267 Dick Dunn wrote:
> Does anybody have actual experience keeping cider in stainless "corny" kegs
> for longer periods than just enough to dispense the cider? Let's say a few
> months up to a year. Specifically, is there any tendency toward pitting in
> the keg or any other difficulty because of the acidity of the cider?
I have limited direct experience but an academic background in materials
engineering (mainly metallurgy) may prove useful for once as something other
than a conversation stopper.
Beverage grade vessels are generally made from 316 or 304 grade stainless
steel and can well stand up to general corrosion from cider because the pH
is nowhere near low enough to break down the very hard, passive
chromium-rich corrosion layer that protects the surface by acting as a
barrier to further corrosion. Pitting occurs in the presence of dissolved
ions that create microscopic electrolytic cells that breaks throught he
barrier layer. It's possible that an overabundance of calcium salt or
other ionic additives might cause pitting, but I doubt that you'd plan to
drink a cider with that much ionic content. The risk of pitting is far
greater from the ions in many cleaners and sanitizers. This risk is greatly
maginified if you let it sit too long before rinsing or drying or use a
chlorinated sanitizer. Another risk is Microbiologically Induced Corrosion
(MIC) in which colonies of microorganisms on the surface create
microscopically sized local conditions that permit corrosion to occur.
Thorough cleaning will help prevent that, and filtering the cider might
provide additional protection by limiting the amount of sediment that will
accumulate. However, keep in mind that Cornelius kegs are made of the same
material as commercial wine tanks and those stand up to these same things
very well without special handling.
When I obtained my "Corny" kegs a few still had a few inches of beverage
syrup in them. It appered to have been diluted because fermentation had
occurred, building up quite a bit of CO2 pressure. Judging by condition of
the associated encrustation they seem to have been stored that way for a
period of at least a few months. The ones with fermented Coke and Dr.
Pepper inside were free of pitting once opened and cleaned, but some of the
others which seem to have been cleaned but not rinsed showed minor pitting.
I've seen something similar as recently as this morning when I came across a
mini-keg that I'd started to clean and had carelessly left unfinished when
called away. It sat for some months in a hidden corner of the cellar with
detergent and water still inside. It would have been fine if it had been
just water inside, but the detergent was not a non-ionic one. The pitting
was minor but required considerable scrubbing to remove. There is a risk
that these pits, though now appearing to be gone to the naked eye, have
nevertheless left microscopic imperfections that would cause pits to
reappear rapidly under a return to conditions that favor pitting.
I've fermented some cider in the kegs, with it remaining inside for several
months before being racked to glass. There were no problems with the kegs
themselves, though I didn't care much for it as a method because it is more
difficult to see what is happening inside and to get a samples (unless you
have the hardware for dispensing close at hand).
Gary Awdey
Eden, New York
------------------------------
Subject: Re: storage in SS
From: Bill <squeeze@mars.ark.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:16:49 -0700
SS itself will be as non-reactive to food acids as glass is, but some SS
containers use soldered joints [rather than SS welds], which *would*
react with the malic acid - lead contamination's not a good thing!
Bill <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/>
------------------------------
Subject: More stainless kegs
From: Bradley Hunter <hunter@midcoast.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:10:11 -0400
Like Dick Dunn, I too, would like to do some long term storage of my
cider in a stainless keg.
I'll be pressing a minimum of 30 gal. in a couple of weeks and I'll do
the primary ferment in glass and then 10 gal. will go into an oak
barrel for a year and part of the rest I'd like to age in my 15.5 gal.
half barrel SS keg.
The legally obtained keg has the original narrow neck with dip tube
removed and I've hot water soaked and B-Brited the inside and scrubbed
with a carboy brush but I'm not satisfied with the cleanliness.
I've just purchased a couple of packets of Five Star PBW ( Powder
Brewery Wash ) but I've never used that before.
Instructions indicate to dissolve the packet in 2-5 gal. of warm water
and soak until clean.
Would I be better off to make a smaller amount of a strong solution (
2-3 gal. mix ) and not try to fill the keg to the brim and just roll
and slosh the cleaner around or does it need to do it's job with
extended full contact on all surfaces?
Also, how long do you usually let it soak (hours-days?) and can I reuse
the solution to clean a couple of older food grade plastic totes I
would like to resurrect?
Thanks for any advice,
Brad
------------------------------
Subject: RE: long(er)-term storage in SS kegs?
From: chaad@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:21:57 -0400
While I have not stored cider for long periods in corny kegs, I have
stored wine and mead with pH in the 3.2-3.4 range for extended periods of
time with no ill effects on the keg or wine. IIRC, soft drinks have a pH
around 2.5 and up.
A couple of caveats for using the kegs: 1) If the keg ever held root beer,
you may want to change the seals (Some people change them regardless).
The other flavors don't seem to linger in the seals, but root beer is
pretty strong. 2) Be careful with chlorine-based sanitizers, as prolonged
exposure can cause corrosion in the weld seams.
If I can keep a plum melomel for over 2 years in a corny, your cider should
be OK. Though the total acidity of your cider is probably higher than the
wines I made, I have never seen any ill effects on corny kegs from storing
acidic beverages or using acid-based sanitizers (Star-san is one I like).
Chad Brown
------------------------------
Subject: Stainless Cooperage
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:54:05 -0500
I've kept cider for several months, but not years, in stainless kegs.
Not 'Cornelius' soda kegs, but 1/2 and 1/6 barrels with sankey valves.
I've not a had a problem with degradation of either product, nor
cooperage.
But that's without the benefits of analysis by a metallurgy lab like the
one behind my office. I suspect that any pitting would be microscopic -
you'd need an SEM to find it. That doesn't mean it couldn't harbor a
biofilm.
I've heard arguments for using 316SS for that reason. It's more
resistant to attack by sulfur than the more common 304SS. But 304SS is
much (much!!) more readily available. I get custom SS 55 gallon barrels
made for about $400 a pop. I assume the fellow could make them from
316, but I shudder to think of the price. The producer I buy kegs from
imports the bodies. I don't think 316 is even an option.
My problem with soda kegs is the quality of the seal. I have a half
dozen of the buggers and that I no longer use for product storage. The
valves and tops are all prone to leaking. Nowadays I fill them up
sanitizer and use them to help clean equipment.
One more note about sulfite etching. I saw it for the first time this
year. At the end of the bottling season, I tried putting a teaspoon of
K-sulfite in my SS drums, instead of leaving them with a touch of
chlorine-based sanitizer, as had been my practice. I almost always
ended up with a small growth deposits of something or other in the drum
during the couple of months they are inactive. So I tried sulfite this
year. Adding powder directly was a _bad_ idea. The high concentration
left visible and tactile roughness in spots about the size of a quarter
in two drums.
One last note about stainless construction. Welds above the liquid line
can corrode (rust) a bit.
Chas.
AEppelTreow Winery and 'Stillery. =20
------------------------------
Subject: Re: long(er)-term storage in SS kegs?
From: "Dennis Henry" <Dennis.Henry@comdev.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:58:22 -0400
Dick,
I've had no problems with cider in the stainless "corny" kegs (reconditioned
soda kegs) over the 1 to 2 year time frame. I've also stored apple wines
and grape wines for similar times.
The soda kegs are definitely designed to handle acidity (phosphoric acid,
think of coke dissolving nails). Stainless steel tanks are also used in
the wine industry. The wine tanks are a particular grade of stainless
(can't remember the number at the moment), I'm not sure if the kegs use
the same type of stainless or not.
The one limitation is dispensing pressure. If you want only a low
carbonation, then it is no issue. For a higher carbonation (beer level
or more), you need to chill the keg for dispensing, otherwise you just
get a blast of foam.
On my to-do list is to get a nitrogen tank and regulator as well. Then I
can store carbonated or still.
Dennis Henry
>From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
>Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 09:01:55 -0600 (MDT)
>
>Does anybody have actual experience keeping cider in stainless "corny" kegs
>for longer periods than just enough to dispense the cider? Let's say a few
>months up to a year. Specifically, is there any tendency toward pitting in
>the keg or any other difficulty because of the acidity of the cider?
>
>I have a couple of ciders I've kept in glass as they age, but they are
>ready to start drinking. I'd like to free up the glass for this fall's
>cider, and I'd just as soon have the older ciders ready to serve, if it's
>OK to keep them in SS that long.
>
>(Yes, I know "keg cider" is a dirty phrase, moreso in the UK than here, but
>in this case all I'm doing is using the keg for dispense--I can get the
>carbonation where I want it, and it saves bottling work.)
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1268
*************************
