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Cider Digest #1292
Subject: Cider Digest #1292, 16 January 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1292 16 January 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
final thoughts on GLOWS (Benjamin Watson)
new batch (Benjamin Watson)
Cider Digest 1291 Tasting kits. ("Mark Johnson")
A level Industry playing field? ("McGonegal, Charles")
Last GLOWS, Honest.. ("Mike Beck")
Are there any unhealthy bacteria? Are there any GOOD mass-produced app ("...)
Re: Cider Digest #1290, 9 January 2006 (Claude Jolicoeur)
Tips on pressing pears? ("McGonegal, Charles")
nitrogen management (Dick Dunn)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: final thoughts on GLOWS
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:05:43 -0500
My apologies to everyone who is heartily sick of reading about GLOWS. I
just want to make a couple of comments and hopefully constructive
suggestions.
1. Marketing. Mike Beck says that, in his opinion, marketing and
promotion is the purpose of these competitions. I agree with him, to a
point. He's clearly trying to establish his cider brand, which is
great. But I would argue that the ultimate purpose is to promote and
define good cider generally, and to educate consumers, who I agree may
be influenced by an "endorsement" like an award at GLOWS.
That's why the Strongbow/Woodpecker controversy is relevant. It isn't
that I object to having this particular style of cider on the market,
or think that there's no place for it in the world. But to give these
products awards as English-style ciders (and thus validate them in the
public's eye) is a mistake. The distinction isn't one based on
snobbishness, but simply the ingredients used, which as Dick and others
have pointed out are clearly stated on the label and well understood. I
wouldn't even have a problem with Bulmer submitting a small-batch
limited release cider, which might compete in the English cider
category. But by placing them in English rather than Common Cider, I'm
afraid the effect might be to discourage other, smaller UK producers
from submitting their product. For instance, I would love to have
Sheppey's Tremlett's Bitter or Dabinett varietal cider tasted alongside
a similar US varietal in a competition setting. Then we really begin to
learn something.
In my mind, this is still all about education (of ourselves as amateur
and commercial cider makers as much as the cider drinking public). Even
long-established cider producers have barely scratched the surface of
what is possible. Regional Slow Food events, Cider Day, and other
"open" tasting events are a great way to expose people to a range of
ciders and promote regional producers, and ideally competitions such as
GLOWS will complement and support those ongoing efforts.
2. Specific Suggestions. I went back to the entry sheets, and, since
there seems to be some confusion about how dry is dry, I'd suggest in
future competitions that GLOWS separate Semisweet/Dry into two options
- -- and let the cider maker characterize it and the judges judge on the
basis of their knowledge.
Also, to follow up on one of Gary's suggestions, I think that it might
be interesting to have a Commercial Custom category, for larger cider
makers who might want to experiment with small-batch craft ciders (or
for a product like Farnum Hill's Ashmead's Kernel or Esopus Spitzenburg
varietals, which have never been commercially released, but are very
interesting).
That's it for me, though I'm happy to debate these points and others ad
nauseum over a barrel of cider with anyone.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: new batch
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:13:01 -0500
Courtesy of Rich Stadnik at Pup's Cider Co., I am now starting
fermentation on a custom-pressed small batch of cider, with the
following juice composition:
40% Black Oxford, 40% Roxbury Russet, 20% Calville Blanc d'Hiver
The specific gravity I measured was 1.070, so the potential alcohol
will probably end up around 9% abv. or better. The juice is quite
sweet, despite the acidity from the Calville and, to some extent, from
the Black Oxford (an heirloom variety that I am liking more and more).
I'm using Lalvin R-2 (Sauternes) yeast for the first time, so that's
another variable. I'll see how it goes and report back.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Digest 1291 Tasting kits.
From: "Mark Johnson" <friendlypool@astound.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:26:53 -0800
I am an amatuer beer maker, wine maker perry maker and have mad Apple
Cider from a kit. I am a member of the award Winning DOZE homebrew club
that meets at Beer Beer and more beer in Concord, CA, and sometimes at
EJPhair's Concord Brew Pub.
My last name is Johnson so I nicknamed myself Ciderman. (It should have
been Perryman as that is my leaning.) I am 62 years old and have 1
Bartlett pear tree, an unknown pear probably planted after WWI , but
maybe as late as the 1960's, (My secret ingredient) and a Gravenstein
Apple tree which ripens in July. I also have six wild reverted plums,
yello, red, and purple from which I have made wine.
These were my original raw ingredients.
DOZE meets once a month and has several big brews each year. We have a
style presentation at each meeting. I would love to do a cider tasting
presentation with one of your kits.
Fortunately, in the San Francisco bay area we can often find a very good
selection of ciders. I have had ones from England, local producers, and
the Gallo Wine companies "Alcopops", etc.
It would be a great meeting to have 10 different ciders and perries to
taste using your kit. Several of our members are BJCP judges too.
Please Bring it on.
Mark "Ciderman" Johnson
------------------------------
Subject: A level Industry playing field?
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:58:43 -0600
Mike Beck noted recently that all US cider (commercial) producers are
operating under the same set of regulations - implying (or stating, I
forget which) that we have equal opportunities to make various types of
cider with the same basic tool set of allow practices. Hence, we
fundamentally have to share an industry with the macro ciders.
This is true. But I think it overlooks how we (commercial cider
producers) actually go about creating our businesses and products and
some non-market motivations that come into play.
I'll use a couple of examples of products to illutrate.
First, consider the 'apple wine' commonly produced by many small
wineries, especially in the Midwest. My own take on these products is
that the producer is trying to emulate a reisling or other white grape
wine, starting from apples. These folks operate under 27CFR24 - wine
regs. They have a number of restrictions as to additives, processes and
extent of water dilution - which are a bit looser for fruit wines than
for grape wines. They have not been part of this discussion or
community at all.
Second, we have a group that I shall call 'craft cider producers'.
These folks also have winery licenses. As personal decision, they have
decided to try and honor as much cider making tradition as they can -
either by practice, cultivar selection or both. I think the rules they
subject _themselves_ to look a lot like the vintage, appellated (often
estate) _grape_ wine rules - which are more rigorous than the fruit wine
regs. These products are usually under 7% ABV, and so fall into FDA
(not TTB!) regulation, legally. Philosophically, the producers are more
like really fine wine producers.
Third, we have commonly available mass-market ciders - domestic and
imported. These ciders (put the quotes in if you like) are under 7%ABV,
and so fall into the murky, undefined world of FDA regulation. These
producers use the full flexibility of that murkiness to drive the cost
down as far as possible and retain some nominal quality and market
appeal.
It's true that we all (US producers) live under the same regs - but we
don't all choose to place our products in the same place in the regs,
especially when we feel the regs are insufficient to our other goals.
We don't have a domaine controllee for cider, that could set tight
regulations for cider in the US - ones more like fine wine regulation.
But a number of us try to produce our products _as_if_ there were. And
to complicate matters, we haven't done a good job stating those tighter
rules - nor do we perfectly agree on what they would be.
I think it's understandable that cider makers holding themselves to
stricter practices raise their eyebrows at producers aiming to most
cheaply attain 'substantially the flavor and character of cider' - I
think that's the legal phrasing.
In a related vein, I think that Gary Awdey's note that there seems to be
range of expectations as the the purpose and utilization of the BJCP
guidelines is very cogent and insightful.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Last GLOWS, Honest..
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:24:27 -0500
CD,
Sincerest apologies to Tim Bray for misquoting - my fault.
Last GLOWS comments I promise.
Yes GLOWS could have been better. However, I was impressed with the first
shot out of the gun. Remember, for the commercial producer, competitions for
cider/apple products are rare. Love 'em or hate 'em competitions will
happen. Please give organizers input, they do want to do better and serve
the industry well.
Mike Beck
St.John's, MI
------------------------------
Subject: Are there any unhealthy bacteria? Are there any GOOD mass-produced app
From: "Hal Smith" <rakovsky@excite.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:37:58 -0500 (EST)
Are there any unhealthy bacteria that can get into the cider?
In biology classes, the professor can take a sample of food and put it in
a plastic dish, and we can watch the bacteria multiply in a few weeks.
Cider contains lots of sugars that the bacteria could eat. I rack the lees by
sucking the cider through a tube. Unhealthy bacteria could get into the cider
from the air or my lips. Vinegar-producing bacteria is able to survive the
low alcohol content (Although not my sulfite!). What are your ideas on this?
Rohrbach's orchards, my supplier, cleanses its soft cider using UV Light,
but this does not kill the yeast. I also feel sulfite affects the taste.
* * *
BRAD, I wouldn't say that you are being "overly anxious" to get the cider out
of primary. I don't think it would hurt to wait another week or so either
though, so it's up to you. As you probably know, the speed of fermentation
has alot to do with what yeast you use. I like natural yeast because it's
just that- natural. But it has its disadvantages too.
JOHN ROSS, that is an excellent point you make about cider judges. They all
might have their own inclination as to which flavors they prefer. But that
doesn't necessarily mean one with a different flavor has worse quality. The
judges should be well prepared.
I think both cider competitions and expos are great for promotion, which
is what we need. I would love to have some here in Pennsylvania.
Even simply presenting your own ciders at local fairs, Labor Day etc. is
good.
BEN WATSON, it is even hard to believe that Strongbow was NOT put in
the same category as woodchuck. Sweden has a mass-produced cider called
KOPPERBERG. It goes in the same quality category.
And you're right, cider would be better off under the wine category,
not the "This beer tastes..." category. The commercial cider makers are
aiming for Miller Light, not Cabernet.
I have found French mass-produced ciders to taste like good quality cider,
but I don't know if that is true.
We've done a good job establishing that there are no decent US commercial
ciders. But are there any good quality mass-produced US/British apple
brandies? Lairds?
Thanks, Hal Smith
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1290, 9 January 2006
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:32:29 -0500
In Cider Digest #1290, 9 January 2006
>
>Subject: Carbonation
>From: Mike Johnson <tomijon@yahoo.com>
>Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 19:45:40 -0800 (PST)
>
>Thank you everyone for all the feedback. Following are the specifics of
>my cider batches:
Mike,
A few points anout the infos you give on your different batches.
Your starting SG is very low in general. Also, your final SG, often quoted
around .992, is also very low (I have never seen one of my batches
fermented to dryness go lower than .998). Are you sure your hydrometer is
OK? Have you tested it against pure water at 60F to make sure it reads 1.000?
You usually use 3/4 cup of cane sugar for priming 5 gals (US I assume). You
could use up to twice as much, especially if you have real Champagne
bottles. Personnally, I prefer dextrose to cane sugar, as I think it makes
fines bubbles. I also ajust the dosage in function of the SG of the fully
fermented cider (i.e. sometimes fermentation stops aroung 1.005, I would
then add less).
For the batch#1 (04), let's assume the sulfite is the cause. Anyhow, as
there is nothing left, there isn't anything we can do about it.
For the #2 and #3, it is still too early to make a true opinion. I like to
keep the newly bottled cider in the warmth for a few weeks to initiate the
fermentation, then in the cold room for at least 6 months.
For #4, try also reinoculate some yeast - I usually add half dosage of
yeast at priming, just to insure there is some activity.
Claude Jolicoeur,
Quebec.
>
>Any further comments are greatly appreciated. I love the flavor of these
>batches but I need some bubbles. Thanks, MIke
>
------------------------------
Subject: Tips on pressing pears?
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:31:33 -0600
My orchard partner has a custom (home) built 28" rack and cloth press.
The last couple of years, they have struggled to press the pears I
brought in. They are mushy and very slippery. Currently, the best
option we've come up with is to use a plate in the grinder with much
bigger holes, to grind small amounts at a time - not let the pomace
accumulate before loading into the cheeses, to load lighter and press
fewer and thinner cheeses.
We've tried rice hulls, but find they are hard to mix into the pomace.
Does anyone have suggestions on how to ease the pain?
Charles
Aeppeltreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: nitrogen management
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:07:32 -0700
Mike Beck noted, on judging the non-commercial entries at GLOWS,
>...Many ciders had some obvious faults. (mercaptans & sulfides)
> This is most commonly due to lack of proper yeast nutrient. You minimalists
> out there should understand that cider must is very low in yeast assimable
> nitrogen (YAN). If I caught a little rotten egg smell or other fault I
> would always knock off points. Please use things like DAP and other
> nutrients, your cider will thank you.
I don't doubt Mike's experience in the judging...the sulfurous notes show
up more often than they should. But the problem is more complicated than
just a lack of nutrient (nitrogen in particular). As such, adding nutrient
may prevent the off-character, but in a sense it's treating a symptom rather
than the underlying problem(s). And if *I* added nutrients, my ciders would
certainly _not_ thank me; they might not even forgive me!
Mike, it's not "minimalists" who are avoiding nutrients so much as
"traditionalists". There are traditional reasons for keeping nitrogen
low in cider, and it's not a mistake or an anachronism. However, it
_does_ require more attention, and definitely more time in cidermaking,
to work with low nutrient levels.
It starts in the orchard with a deliberate attempt to keep nitrogen low
in mature trees. This will obviously reduce the yield, but increase the
quality of the fruit. (Amateur that I am, I've inadvertently verified
the flip side of this in my own orchardette by overfeeding some trees.)
[In that context, I'm surprised that there would be any need for adding
nitrogen for fermentation, since the juice that most amateurs will be able
to get will come from heavily-fertilized orchards.]
In the "ciderhouse", using fruit that doesn't have as much nitrogen
available will give a slower fermentation, and allow some characters to
develop that won't happen if you slam-bang through the fermentation in
a couple weeks. That's what the traditionalists are after.
It's the whole basis for the process of "keeving"--which is particularly
intended to get rid of excess nitrogen so that the cider will ferment
exceptionally slowly. Keeving deliberately starves the yeast, and it
can produce some wonderful ciders. It does take patience. Follow some
of the reports of folks working with Gary Awdey's keeving experiment.
To be sure, the sulfurous note is one of the _bad_ characters that can
develop with a slow, nutrient-starved fermentation. Some yeasts do this
more than others. Some yeasts produce it but it disappears after a bit.
A particular reason you might find it in amateur ciders is that the popular
White Labs "English Cider Yeast" (WLP775) is known to give a sulfurous
character. Nothing surprising about this; they even note it on their web
page, but they add that it will age out. In other respects this is a fine
yeast, pleasant to work with, no off tastes, flocculates well...you just
have to give it time to do its job! If folks make cider with this yeast
and rush it into bottle...well, it's not the fault of the yeast if the
cidermaker doesn't follow recommendations.
You can add nutrient and make a pretty good cider, and quickly too. Or
you can stay low on the nitrogen, ferment slowly, let the cider age, and
make a better cider.
For a typical fall competition, if you're entering cider of the current
harvest, you're rushing it too much. Even here in the high plains cider
desert, where some of my cider is started by the first week of September,
I wouldn't try to enter the current year's cider in a November event.
A good discussion of this topic can be found on Andrew's web pages (where
else?!?...as usual!), in particular the article "Nitrogen - the Forgotten
Element in Cider Making!" See
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/nitro.htm
(or step in from the top web page and pick the topic from the sidebar
so that you can stay with the frameset)
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1292
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