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Cider Digest #1304
Subject: Cider Digest #1304, 2 March 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1304 2 March 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: R2 yeast (Benjamin Watson)
Cider Competitions? ("Harrison Gibbs")
Re: Starting a siphon (Matt Wehland)
ProElif encapsulated yeast for sparkling cider ("McGonegal, Charles")
more R2 experimental notes (Benjamin Watson)
Benzene (Andrew Lea)
Re: R2 yeast - be careful, and culturing yeasts on the press (Terry Bradshaw)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: R2 yeast
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:04:19 -0500
Thanks to Eric from Burdett, NY for his cautionary note about hydrogen
sulfide when using R2 yeast.
I received a similar warning off-list from Charles McGonegal, but as
yet I have not encountered any sulfurous smell or taste with the cider.
It has fallen clear, and I tested it this morning -- S.G. is around
1.012 and there is no perceptible odor of H2S.
I don't know how to account for this (except for luck), unless the
apples (from a commercial orchard) had a sufficient level of nitrogen
in them. Or perhaps it was the varieties themselves that I used
(Roxbury Russet, Black Oxford, and Calville Blanc d'Hiver). Or perhaps
it was the cool, slow fermentation -- though it hasn't been as cold as
usual in my fermentation closet this winter, until now. (January was
almost as warm during the day in New Hampshire as it was in Northern
California . . . weird).
Anyway, I take the warning seriously, and certainly it wouldn't hurt
anything to use a yeast nutrient. But so far for me, with this batch,
sulfur smell has been a non-issue.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Competitions?
From: "Harrison Gibbs" <rharrisong@lycos.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 10:02:45 -0500
In response to Julian Temperley's call for cider entries, he didn't say
whether this was a commercial or amateur cider competition. Also, has
anyone had trouble shipping cider oversees for competitions, shipping in the
States is a enough of a pain, with the prohibitive policies of USPS and UPS.
On a similar note, what are good home cider competitions stateside?
I have entered the AHA but they usually only have about 30 to 40 Cider
entries, so few that that they hold only one round of judging, compared
to the 4000+ beer and mead entries. There was much discussion of GLOW on
the list, I hope to enter next year. Are there any other big ones?
Finally, if the cider community wants to improve cider judging, they should
look into the continuing education part of the Beer Judge Certification
Program. I know that when I took the course and beer judge exam there
was nothing on ciders involved. However, most amateur competitions rely
on beer judges because they are the only ones really trained to judge
any kind of beverage in a large competition. This is at least as far
as I know. If there is a cider judge certification program out there,
please let me know as I would be very interested. However, I believe the
BJCP could benefit greatly from a special course on ciders. This program
could then be distributed around the country ensuring that quality cider
judges are judging in the competitions. I expect that this would make a
great presentation at the National Homebrewer's Conference this summer or
in the next year. I would also spread interest in cider making beyond its
current toehold around the Great Lakes and New England. Just some thoughts.
Harrison Gibbs
Williamsburg, VA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Starting a siphon
From: Matt Wehland <mattw@webtripper.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 10:51:55 -0600
Just thought I'd add one or two more things on starting a siphon.
One thing is that you only need to use your thumb on one end of the hose,
since with no incoming air, the water in the hose can't move. Keeps your
dirty hand out of the product. So you just fill up the hose most of the way,
making sure to get all the air bubbles out of the middle of the water (air
can cause the siphon to stop), and then cap off the output end, stick the
cane in the carboy and release the output end (making sure it is lower than
the level of fluid in the carboy, the lower the better) starting the siphon
like others have said. It can be tricky the first few times (unless you have
maintained some fish tanks, then you have already done this plenty of times),
but you will get the hang of it. Of course the receiving vessel must be
lower than the sending vessel, but you can go up and over obstacles if needed
(this is how I could drain my water bed with a hose that had to go up a few
feet before it went out the window).
There is no set amount of water you need in the hose for a good siphon to
start, it is relative. You need more water in the hose than the length of
the racking tube to be able to start the siphon, again with no air bubbles in
it.
Oh yeah an easy way to remove air bubbles in the hose is to just hold one end
up high and shake it a little, the air bubbles should move up the the high
end, leaving you with a full water column. Add more water if needed, rinse,
lather, repeat until you have a good water column.
Aslo watch out for air entering the junction of the racking tube/hose, as this
can stop your siphon. If you are getting a little air in here, try pushing
the tubing over the cane more and then restricting the hose a little right
after the built up air bubbles. The increase in velocity is usually enough
to suck the air bubbles out of the hose. A good siphon should be flowing
quite well, if it is going real slow, then you probably have air in the hose.
Alternative siphon starting method is to use a piece of tubing large enough to
slip over the end of the racking tubing just a few inches long, put your
mouth on this and start the siphon, then remove this helper tube and continue
to rack.
Alternative racking cane, just use a piece of copper tubing from the local
hardware. If I ever get around to brewing again (ya, if I couldn't get
around to it before, having a new baby will really help), this is what I plan
on using.
Wow, how did I just write this much on siphoning? Oh well, hope it helps
someone, as it helped me when I learned some of these tricks from other
people (and then slapped my head sometimes, doh).
It really isn't hard, just tricky until you get the hang of it.
Matt
------------------------------
Subject: ProElif encapsulated yeast for sparkling cider
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:36:01 -0600
I just got some manufacturer's info on using ProElif yeast beads for
sparkling cider production. The idea of this product is that the yeast
is immobilized in BB sized alginate beads, making riddling and
disgorging quick and easy.
The presentation has some neat pictures of cider being set to tirage.
The text in in French. I believe the addition rate is 1g/bottle, but on
the other hand, they are getting full champagne pressure in 2-3 weeks.
I posted a PDF of the presentaion on the Cider Network website as a
discussion under 'Technical Cidermaking'.
The direct link is:
http://cider.appletrue.com/frm_view.php?subject_id=3D12
You'll need to login first for the link to work properly. Or just look
inder 'Stuff:Discussions'
Charles
Aeppeltreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: more R2 experimental notes
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:08:37 -0500
Just as a follow-up to the R2 (Sauternes) yeast batch that I'm doing, I
wonder if I could ask my fellow amateur cider makers on CD to give
their opinion as to what might be best in terms of stopping
fermentation on this small quantity (3 gal. carboy).
The reason being, I quite like the fruitiness and mouthfeel at S.G.
1.012, and I'm thinking that the alcohol is at a decent level, too --
around 7%, if I had to guess.
Normally I just take the path of least resistance with my cider and let
it ferment to dryness, because I like still English-style cider. But I
wouldn't mind making a "semi-dry" for a change instead of the austere
product that I usually produce.
So, I guess my options are:
1. Add some potassium sorbate, along with a bit of potassium
metabisulfite (to avoid that unpleasant "geranium" flavor. What's the
recommended rate per gallon for stopping a ferment with sorbate and
stabilizing it -- and is it okay left in bulk, or should this be done
at bottling stage?
2. In-bottle pasteurization, a la Bill Rhyne's technique with Rhyne
Cyder, thus killing off the remaining yeast and leaving the residual
sugar.
3. Sterile-filtering the cider through pads to get rid of the yeast. I
don't have the equipment here at home, but Rich Stadnik at Pup's Cider
has said I can use his setup.
4. Don't screw with it, but rack it carefully off the lees into a clean
carboy and let it complete fermentation, to see how much of the
fruitiness persists when it's a bit drier.
I'm leaning toward #4 for purely scientific purposes, or to #1 just
because I've never done it. In my opinion, pad filtering sometimes
comes with a loss of flavor or body. And in-bottle pasteurization on a
small scale seems like a big hassle.
Any opinions or advice, on or off list, would be welcome.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Benzene
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 22:44:33 +0000
Tim Bray wrote:
> Dan McFeeley posted a link on MLD to this article:
>
> http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/news/printNewsBis.asp?id=65840
>
> Andrew, do you have data on the concentrations of Ascorbic Acid in
> apple juices? Given that all apple juice probably contains some
> concentration of Vitamin C, and that many people add it to keep the
> juice from oxidizing, adding sodium benzoate is quite likely to
> create some concentration of benzene in cider.
In my 'day job' I have been aware of the benzoate /ascorbate / benzene
story since it first cropped up over 15 years ago (and it should not be
news to anyone in the drinks industry now - it has been in the open
literature for many years). In fact our lab was probably one of the
first anywhere to nail down the mechanism. As regards its occurence in
unfortified apple juice, I have no data. The levels of natural ascorbic
acid in apple juice are effectively nil (unmeasurable < 10 ppm) because
all the AA is quickly destroyed during milling and pressing by the
coupled polyphenol / polyphenol oxidase enzyme system. So it would
likely only arise if people were deliberately adding benzoate and
ascorbate together. This is not done by any mainstream manufacturer in
the US AFAIK and here in the EU preservatives are not permitted to be
added to fruit juices (except sulphite for bulk dispense products). The
mainstream soft drinks industry has long reformulated with sorbate in
place of benzoate if ascorbate is also used, precisely to avoid this
problem.
The sorts of levels which are typically generated in soft drinks (but
only if benzoate and ascorbate are both present) are in
the single or low 10's of ppb range of benzene (even when forced). Sugar
tends to inhibit the reactions (good for juices) while UV light tends to
enhance it (so don't use clear bottles). If people in the US are
concerned about benzoate / ascorbate in 'farmgate' apple juice I suggest
they try to persuade the FDA or their local state authorities (eg NYSAES
in New York) to spend a few taxpayers' dollars on some benzene analyses of
typical products. Good data, rather than speculation, would be useful
to have.
Although the media are doing their best to blow this up into a major
scare, it really isn't. You are exposed to far more benzene every time
you fuel up your motor car, or even sitting in a traffic queue.
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/eleventh/profiles/s019benz.pdf . The
levels set by regulatory authorities tend to be on the basis of what is
analytically detectable rather than what is toxicologically relevant. It
is perhaps instructive to consider the other materials in apple juice
such as polyphenols which have effects that activate the carcinogen
detoxifying enzymes in the body and may well negate the effects of
benzene. Once when I put in a grant application to a government funding
body in the UK to study this (in the context of patulin), it was turned
down on the basis that such knowledge would be dangerous to have - in
other words it would open a can of worms which the regulators would
prefer to remain closed.
I am not downplaying the significance of
environmental carcinogens and I believe it was right for the drinks
industry to reformulate as they have done - but a barbecue is a far
worse source of nasties (toxic polyaromatics like benz(a)pyrene) and
nobody gets upset about those every summer. The acrylamide story over
the last 5 years has also taught us that something we thought was a
chemical nasty (and is again demonstrably carcinogenic) is present in
every pack of potato chips (crisps) or french fries and has been for
ever, and again we don't get upset over that. We need to get the risks
here in proportion.
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK.
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: R2 yeast - be careful, and culturing yeasts on the press
From: Terry Bradshaw <terryb@lostmeadowvt.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:38:03 -0500
> Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1292, 16 January 2006, R2 yeast - be careful
>
>From: "deva maas" <devamaas@hotmail.com>
>Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:24:52 -0800
>
>Sorry for not replying sooner. I wanted to warn Ben Watson of his use of R2
>yeast. I have used this strain in the past and found it needs high levels
>of nutrients to not produce excessive amounts of H2S. I have created stinky
>cider from this yeast and advise all who use it to be sure to add proper
>nutrients. in the same year with the same cider a very clean cider was
>produced with DV10 which is my currant favorite cider yeast.
>
>thanks, Eric - Burdett, NY
>
I've got to agree with this one. Out of my 13 carboys going this season
one of the two with straight R2, also a keeved cider, is smelly pretty
nasty. I followed Gary Awdey's suggestion of tossing a couple of grains
in at the beginning of the keeve. Interestingly, one of the two
supposedly identical carboys never even started fermenting at all, so I
added a pinch of EC-1118 to get it going. This is the first season in
probably five that I've even used commercial yeasts...I wonder why?
(Actually I was concerned about a lack of inocula on my new press, so
decided to hedge my bets). That brings up a question, presumably for
Andrew. How long should it take to build up a colony of cider yeasts on
my wood press? I do sanitize before and after each run with Star-San, an
acid-wash type of product. I also seal both the press boxes and racks
with shellac. I would be willing to save out one rack from the
sanitizer specifically for building up cultures, kind of like a cheese
board. Any thoughts?
TB
press info here, typos and all:
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com/juice.htm
================
Terence Bradshaw
Calais, VT
terryb@lostmeadowvt.com
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com
http://lostmeadowvt.blogspot.com
1450 feet, zone 4A/B?
The views represented are mine and mine only........
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1304
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