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Cider Digest #1287
Subject: Cider Digest #1287, 31 December 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1287 31 December 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: press construction question (Bill)
Re: Press Construction (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: using honey in bottle fermentation (Benjamin Watson)
apple brandy ("Howard, John")
Re: using honey in bottle fermentation (Tim Bray)
Re: 2005 Glows Competition (dubious entries?) (Dick Dunn)
RE: Cider Digest #1286, 22 December 2005 ("Mike Beck")
Re: Cider brandy (michael arighi)
RE: Press Construction ("chris horn")
Re: past articles (Benjamin Watson)
Re: Harrison scionwood question ("John C. Campbell III")
cider brandy in Australia (warwick)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: press construction question
From: Bill <squeeze@mars.ark.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:40:29 -0800
Dave - 20" racks are pretty big for a bottle jack, but I'd advise
getting the biggest you can find - as you say, you don't have to use all
the pressure available if your framework starts complaining - I think
you meant you'll use 4 cheeses per load? more layers, made thinner works
best, and you *must* use good racks between
my somewhat heavier press is detailed here:
http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/pressing/
it uses 24" racks and has 60 ton hydraulics capable of 3000psi, but I
never need more than 2000# - and no, the pulp will not heat up measureably
if you can get 1 liter out of each 3-3.5# of pulp, you know you've done
as well as possible, but w/ a bottle jack I'd expect less
Bill <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/>
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Press Construction
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 02:59:45 -0500
In Cider Digest #1286, 22 December 2005
>Subject: Press Construction
>From: "drcath@tiac.net" <drcath@tiac.net>
>Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:43:40 -0500
>
>For a welded steel press frame, what is an acceptable rating for a
>hydraulic bottle jack that will maximize juice extraction efficiency from a
>small rack and cloth set but will not place excessive stress on the frame
>welds?
Here are the basic stress calculations you need to make to insure your
press will be sturdy enough.
For the vertical members, the maximum stress is simply the load divided by
the steel area. So, assuming you have 2 vertical members made of 2" square
tubing with 3/16 wall thickness, you get:
Area = 2 * ((2 * 2) - ((2 - 3/8) * (2 - 3/8))) = 2.72 sq.inches total
With a 8 ton jack, you get
Stress = 16000 lbs / 2.72 = 5900 psi, which is quite low.
For the horizontal members, it is a bit more complicated as these work in
bending. The maximum stress is given by the bending moment divided by the
section modulus.
Bending moment is the load * width / 4, in your case, 20" width and a 8 ton
jack would give 80000 in.lb
Section modulus (Z), for a rectangular tubing beam, is given by:
Z = (bd^3 - hk^3)/6d
where b is the width, d is the height of the beam,
k = d - 2*wall thickness, h = b - 2*wall thickness.
Assuming you use for the horizontal members 2x4 tubing with 1/4 wall
thickness, you would get:
b=2, d=4, h=1.5, k=2.5, and Z = 2.65 in^3
And the max stress would be 80000 / 2.65 = 30000 psi, which is too much for
standard steel - it would bend. With this type of structure, you don't want
any stress in excess of 20000 psi. You would then have to try again the
calculation, possibly with 3/8 wall thickness it would be OK - or you could
take a smaller jack. But, for sure, 2x2 square tubing will not make it.
For the welds, you may assume a capacity of about 1000 lbs per linear inch
of weld. A weld around a 2x4 tube is 10 inches long and can take 10000 lbs.
You have 2 (one each end), so 20000 lbs would be OK.
Hope this helps...
Claude Jolicoeur
today writing as a mechanical engineer for a change...
------------------------------
Subject: Re: using honey in bottle fermentation
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 07:51:48 -0500
Seth Jones wrote:
> After three years restoring an old orchard on my property I had my
> first crop this year. At least enough for a couple carboys. I want to
> bottle ferment some sparkling cider and am interested in using honey
> rather than sugar for taste and "mouth feel". Should I use the same
> amount as sugar (2 tsp per bottle) or should I use more? Anyone have
> other advice? Should I use something other than honey? How does that
> taste come out? I have a blend of baldwins, northern spys and rhode
> island greening. It's pretty tart after the first ferment. Thanks for
> the advice. You guys are pretty impressive, I tried a lot of your
> ciders at Cider Day this year...
One of the more scientific people in this group (Gary, Claude, Andrew,
etc. etc.) will probably weigh in with more authority. But my gut
reaction is that secondary (bottle) fermentation with honey would be a
BAD idea. I can't even tell you why (without more coffee and research),
and perhaps you should try a couple of bottles just for the sheer
thrill of it. But I wouldn't risk one or two carboys' worth, if that's
all you're making this year.
Adding honey to your juice for primary fermentation is fine -- it makes
cyser -- but I would suspect that there would be flavor and
fermentation problems with using a dosage of honey at bottling time.
For one thing, it might generate too much CO2 in a closed bottle if
substituted one for one with priming sugar. But more importantly, along
with the mouthfeel I suspect you might create a drastically different,
and probably odd, taste profile.
I have two suggestions. The first is to leave the fermented cider to
mellow over the winter in the carboys. I generally rack once and then
leave the cider alone until April or May, and find that this greatly
improves the taste. It will mature in the bottle as well, but if the
object is to improve the taste, then in my experience you have a better
chance of encouraging malolactic fermentation by keeping it in a carboy
or buik container under airlock. (If there are some lees at the bottom,
so much the better, in terms of stimulating ML fermentation.) This will
have the effect of converting some of the malic acid to lactic acid,
reducing the perceived sharpness, and improving the mouthfeel.
The second thing you might try using, if you're bent on addng something
other than sugar,, is a small amount of boiled cider (cider evaporated
down to about 1/5 to 1/8 of its original volume). This is a
traditional product that can still be found in VT and NH. I guess I am
on the frontier of trying to use it for secondary fermentation, since I
have a small experimental batch of ice cider from last spring that was
VERY sharp (lots of Baldwin) and not very strong (only 9%). So, just
for a hoot, I added about half a cup of boiled cider to a one-gallon
fermenter. It sank to the bottom and stayed there, and I had to repitch
with a fairly aggressive wine yeast to get it going again, but then if
fermented slowly and steadily, with fine, small bubbles. Now the color
is quite nice, and I'm about to rack it off and perhaps
bottle-pasteurize the stuff to leave a bit of residual sweetness if it
tastes good. I'll try to post the results, good or bad. But boiled
cider may be an underutilized substance for cidermaking. I plan to make
a batch of New England cider with it this winter.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all!
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: apple brandy
From: "Howard, John" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:53:27 -0500
I'm happy to see this topic come up. Could someone share a bibliography?
Cheers! John Howard
------------------------------
Subject: Re: using honey in bottle fermentation
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 08:55:23 -0800
Seth,
I've done exactly that and it worked well. You do need to use a little
more honey than sugar, for two reasons: Honey is 20% water, and it is not
quite as fermentable as pure cane sugar. It's almost impossible to dose
bottles individually; much better to mix the honey into the entire batch
before bottling. For a 5-gallon batch, I would use about 1 cup of honey,
or more for really fizzy champagne-style cider. Mix the honey with an
equal amount of boiling hot water, then mix the syrup into the cider, then
bottle.
The taste and body of a thin, sharp cider is much improved by the honey
notes, which will remain after in-bottle fermentation. Much depends on the
yeast. Even a good dry cider can be improved by honey!
You can get better cider from dessert apples by waiting to pick them until
they are completely ripe, falling off the tree; then age them in cool (not
cold) storage until they lose their crispness. Acidity goes down, starch
disappears, sugar goes up, and flavor improves. Risk of spoilage or
infection also increases, but can be controlled with careful use of sulfite
and yeast.
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: Re: 2005 Glows Competition (dubious entries?)
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:56:02 -0700
Prompted by some off-list discussion, and looking back at the full results
of the recent GLOWS competition in Michigan (see digest 1283 and the web
sites referenced by Jeff Carlson's article), I see that Strongbow was
awarded a Silver medal in the Standard Cider category, English sub-category.
Regardless of whether you like or loathe Strongbow, there's something gone
wrong here. The BJCP definition of the Standard Cider category includes
this note:
The Standard category covers ciders and perries made primarily or
entirely from the juice of apples or pears (but not both at once).
The only adjunct permitted in the Standard category, and only in some
sub-categories, is a limited addition of sugar to achieve a suitable
starting gravity.
Yet Strongbow is generally known, from various industry sources, to be
significantly less than -half- juice. This is comparable to most UK mass-
market ciders, but it's neither the style nor the ingredients expected of
an English style cider. Compare, if you will, that you wouldn't expect
Budweiser to be entered, let alone win, in an American Pale Ale category.
I don't explicitly mean to single out Strongbow; it's just that it sticks
out like a sore thumb in the results. Add, for example, although I don't
have any juice-composition information for Woodpecker (Bronze in the
English category at GLOWS), I do see label information noting that it's
got water, sugar, malic acid, caramel color, and "natural apple flavors"
added, so it is also hardly an English Cider according to even a loose
interpretation of the style guidelines. Note that although sugar might
be allowed to adjust SG upward as needed, water isn't allowed, and also
if they're adding water they can't need sugar. Plus, flavorings and
caramel color are right out.
I don't see this as a matter of "fault" so much as a growing-pain sort of
problem in getting a competition going right. Probably the competition
organizers need to make the style rules particularly clear to the commercial
entrants, WRT ingredients.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1286, 22 December 2005
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 14:22:47 -0500
Apple Distillation Discussion
A MSU researcher (Kris Berglund) has published an excellent guide for
artisan distilling. He has used some of my apple mashes to collect data on
pome fruit. It is a free guide and Kris would probably send you a email
version. (berglund@msu.edu) I have my own distillery in Michigan, legal of
course. I will have brandy available in a another year, Until then I can
only use it for my fortified apple wine. (legal requirements on aging)
Soon I will be firing up my still for this seasons distillations. It is
great fun and I encourage anyone to get the licensing and get product out on
the market. There are 10 distilleries in this state and half of them are
making apple based products.
Merry Christmas and a Happy Wassail!
Mike Beck
Uncle John's Cider Mill
Uncle John's Fruit House Winery & Distillery
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider brandy
From: michael arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 23:08:48 -0800
This topic caught my eye because I just ran into exactly this on a
recent trip to southern Germany. Near the Bodensee, on the
Austro-Swiss-German border, there are a lot of people distilling spirits
from various fruits--apples, pears, cherries. My impression is that this
is a modernized version of a traditional craft. Anyway, I happened to
run into one rather interesting variation on it (of which I brought a
bottle home). It is a "Cox-Orange," distilled from Cox's Orange Pippin
and with about a 2-3% post-distillation add-back of juice. Softens the
alcohol and very slightly sweetens it. Also dramatically "punches out"
the aroma.
I had it at a friend's house initially, then located it in the weekly
outdoor market. Quite a number of the fruit sellers appeared to do this
as a relatively regular adjunct to their fruit sales--fermenting and
distilling (probably their production overruns from the garden). Best of
all, most of them had a few glasses behind the counter and were happy to
offer you a free taste of anything that struck your fancy. A lovely, but
inherently dangerous, way to enjoy the market. Dangerous because, unlike
wine tasting, 39% abv spirits will put you under quickly, not to speak
of palate fatigue.
If any of you happen to get around the Uberlingen area in
Baden-Wurttemburg state, on Lake Constance, I strongly recommend
checking out the Saturday morning market (at least in the late
Spring--don't know how late in the year it lasts).
Michael Arighi
Oakland CA
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Press Construction
From: "chris horn" <agent_strangelove@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 08:18:54 -0800
>For a welded steel press frame, what is an acceptable rating for a
>hydraulic bottle jack that will maximize juice extraction efficiency from a
>small rack and cloth set but will not place excessive stress on the frame
>welds?
Well in terms of stess in welds... It depends on how the thing is
designed.... A few ball park guide lines on the strenth of welds (assuming
good weldings and loads in shear...) per inch of weld length: 1/8" 1200lbs.,
1/4" 2400lbs., 1/2"4800lbs.....
Best of luck,
Chris Horn
Scappoose Oregon USA
(Mech. Engineer in my non-cider life....)
'Procrastination is opportunity's assassin.'
Victor Kiam
------------------------------
Subject: Re: past articles
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:51:56 -0500
Terry Mayne wrote:
> I am fairly new to this site. I have questions on freezing cider, before
> and after fermentation to remove water. Before I post my questions is
> there a way to look up old postings to see if it has been discussed?
Based on the Cider Janitron's recent comments about distillation -- to
wit, that it is probably not good to be sharing detailed information
about "doing it yourself" unless the "yourself" involved has a permit
from the federal government -- I would make a distinction here between
freezing and concentrating fresh cider before fermentation (absolutely
legal for any purpose, so far as I know, including fermenting the
concentrated juice into ice cider, which is still considered wine) and
concentrating hard cider after fermentation, which is the method
(fractional crystallization is the ten-cent term) for making
traditional applejack (a.k.a., "cider oil").
The government considers the production of applejack equivalent to
distillation, and it is similarly illegal to do it without a license,
even though one would be hard-pressed to make an applejack that's much
over 18-20% abv.
More importantly, applejack is rather nasty stuff and not recommended,
because it concentrates all of the impurities that a distiller would
discard from an eau de vie or brandy in the "heads" and the "tails" of
the run. Gradually concentrating the applejack by freezing and thawing
separates the pure ice from these "impure" compounds. And the effects
of drinking any quantity of such stuff are not pleasant -- wicked
headaches at best, and spasmodic muscle reactions (once known as "apple
palsy") at the worst.
In my opinion, it is far better to make a safe (and legal, for home
consumption) homemade pommeau of about the same strength as applejack
by adding enough purchased apple brandy or eau de vie to fresh cider to
keep it from fermenting. I have gotten good results by mixing them
roughly half and half, or a little lighter.
For a good historical and technical look at applejack or cider oil,
though, there is Sanborn Brown's excellent book, The Wines & Beers of
Old New England (Univ. of New England Press, 1978).
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Harrison scionwood question
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 08:50:00 -0500
Well, I put an inquiry to the Honorable Tom Burford and got this in
response:
> "...John, I have recollection of Nick (Botner) getting scions of
> Harrison from me soon after I located the trees (actually, they
> were in two sites one in NH and the other NJ).
> I was and am very comfortable with the identification of the
> Harrison and the Campfield, as well, for the most part because of the
> descriptions and drawings in Cox's annotated copy of his /A View of
> the Orchard/ ....that he did not live to complete and publish. It was
> in the Library of Congress archives and I arranged to have a copy made
> that I am now "preparing" for future publication.
> The Harrison has enormous potential. What the Newtown Albemarle
> Pippin is to Martinelli the Harrison could be to another vintage cider
> of the world.
> Best wishes.....Tom ..."
Regretfully I had hoped to offer some further clinical information
regarding the chemical composition of the Harrisons with this post.
(realizing of course that 'terroir' would dictate the information might
not hold true for everyone who grew the apples). I sent an e-mail to
one of the presenters at the CiderMakers forum (Diane Flynt ... Blue
Ridge Cider in Laurel Fork, Va. http://blueridgeorchard.com ) who I
believe provided the Harrison juice for the Shelton's presentation ...
asking her if she'd gotten measurements on the juice, (to get us in the
ballpark) Brix, SG, acidity, etc. ... and for some odd reason she never
chose to respond to me. (maybe if I were buying some cider from her at
the same time -snicker-) As Lazarus Long said:
" ... Never appeal to a man's "better nature." He may not have one.
Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage." ...
Now, if Brother Burford will please just hurry up and re-find the "Holy
Grail" of American cidermakers, the genuine Talifero apple ... because
if anyone does, he's going to be the one who finds it.
jccampb
------------------------------
Subject: cider brandy in Australia
From: warwick <tokolosh@penalvagold.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:10:45 +1030
Hi Digest
There are a few smaller stills legally around in Australia, Kellybrook,
near Melbourne make a Calvados and I have heard of several others who would
like to start up. My understanding of the paperwork is that it remains
onerous, as well as bonds required.
New Zealand on the other hand appears far more enlightened and anecdotally
there is no longer much regulation of home distilling. I tried a
commercial apple grappa from NZ recently, it showed promise. On a similar
note does anyone from the digest have any experience of growing pears in
bottles a la Poire William, how do they do it and does it work for apples?
cheers
Warwick
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1287
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