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Cider Digest #1271
Subject: Cider Digest #1271, 30 October 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1271 30 October 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Stuck fermentation gravity level ("Diane Gagnon")
Karmijn De Sonnaville ("John C. Campbell III")
Re: Sweeter Cider, Apple flavor and alchohol (Dick Dunn)
PA cider producers? (Benjamin Watson)
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Subject: Stuck fermentation gravity level
From: "Diane Gagnon" <gagnond@endirect.qc.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:17:55 -0400
At what gravity level can we consider a fermentation stuck ?
This year fermentation ( golden delicious, golden russet, geneva) started
at 1060 and seems to be coming to a stop at 1020 so I am just woundering
if this level is acceptable .
How come the specific gravity reading are different from tree sources ?
Two books reading : 1060 = 9.6% abv = 163 gr/lt
= 7.75% = 131
hydrometer reading : 1060= 8% = 156
Which one to rely on ?
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Subject: Karmijn De Sonnaville
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:39:50 -0400
Well, it may be that 'terroir' has some dramatic effect even on this
variety, but I must say that I am completely underwhelmed with the
highly touted Karmijn De Sonnaville. Zeke Goodband at Scot Farms in
Vermont was so very kind enough to arrange to ship some of the fruit
down to me that I might test it's effect on my blends this year. (I
plan to add them in a mixture I already have 'working' in a five gallon
carboy).
We put in a handful of the species from a variety of highly reputable
nurseries that we have had good success from, a few years ago but the
trees are not mature enough to yield fruit. I confess that the
description in the various nursery catalogs drew us to putting them in
having never even tasting the fruit. Unless they work some 'magic' in
my blend, I submit that the fruit description writers should be
relegated to writing cheap suit advertisements in the London and New
York daily papers after submitting to sterilization so that they don't
pass on their genes to a new generation (of course the same might be
said of solicitors). Diogenes Laertius of Anacharsis (Circa 200) native
of Laerte in Cilicia, said, `The market is a place set apart where men
may deceive one another.' Listen to the hype out of a selection of the
catalogs (the first one in particular ... they name names -snicker- I
have to wonder what compelled Manhart to ascribe such values to the fruit)
KARMIJN (pronounced carmine) DE SONNAVILLE - A new Cox's Orange Pippin
cross with Jonathan from the Netherlands. The round fruit, variable in
shape, is red orange over a greenish yellow background. Manhart says,"
biting into a crisp Karmijn" will cause you to "come up out of your
chair", very rich, juicy and "one of the best liked of high flavored
apples" Karmijn ripens in September:
a Dutch variety, Karmijn De Sonnaville This intensely flavored red
russetted apple from Holland measures the highest in both sugars and
acids. It is a triploid cross of Coxs Orange and Jonathan. It is many
peoples picked favorite, however, it is so highly flavorful and aromatic
that it overwhelms some tastes when just off the tree. Put this
excellent winter keeper in a box when it ripens in mid October and wait
about a month for the complex mellow flavors to start shining through. A
vigorous grower and somewhat scab resistant
Ripens early October. Cox Orange Pippin cross- A connoisseur variety
with a very nice texture and intense flavor that mellows after one month
of cold storage. Also an excellent addition to sweet or hard cider.
Another festival favorite! Performs best in cool summer climates.
Triploid cross: unsuitable as a pollinizer for other varieties.
Mid-season bloom
KARMIJN DE SONNAVILLE Netherlands 1949 (Jonathan x Cox's Orange Pippin)
Rich robust flavor with masses of sugar and acidity and crisp juicy
flesh. One of the strongest-flavored apples comparable to Ashmead's
Kernel. Apples red or with red flush and larger than either parent.
Flowers are large and beautiful. Susceptible to apple scab and grows
best in cooler summer areas.
Crisp? Try "Mealy" Taste? I know the fruit Zeke sent me was fairly
fresh picked ... the only way that apple would make me "come up out of
my chair?" would be if someone fetched one up against the side of my
head with some force. The local market sells Honeycrisps that have twice
the taste impact. Certianly the very worst 'Faux' Foxwhelp I ever
tasted was ten times the De Sonnaville that I bit into this morning with
a friend sharing the experience (to make sure I wasn't daft or biased).
Complexity? Pish Tosh, a straight forward Cox's Pippin (much less a
really profoundly complex apple such as the Kingston Black) completely
overshadows the taste of the Karmijn De Sonnaville, as does the Esopus
Spitzenburg. I gather the apple is coming to wide acceptance in England;
it's certainly cropping up in catalogs here in 'States like (pun
intended a "bad apple"). What has been everyone else's experience /
appraisal on this 'miraculous' fruit?
- -sigh-
Now all I need to do is to quickly find someone over here on east coast
U.S. with a spare bushel of Foxwhelps ..... they'll ship me since I've
none this year.
jccampb
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Sweeter Cider, Apple flavor and alchohol
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:37:49 -0600
In CD 1270, "David Blakely" <slodave69@hotmail.com> asked:
> 1. How do you measure alchohol content? Do you use the same formula that is
> used in beer? We have the specific gravity measurements at all stages of
> fermentation.
Sure, same as beer. Easy way is to take FG - OG and read that number off
on a multi-scale hydrometer that has a potential-alcohol scale.
> 2. How can I make the final product taste more like apples?
> 3. How can I make the final product sweeter? (Saachrin is not an option)
Two responses...
The harshly cynical: If you want it to be sweet and taste like apples, why
are you fermenting it? (ref an old refrain and discussion on "You don't
expect wine to taste like grapes; why do you expect cider to taste like
apples?" Note that I say "taste like", not "taste of".)
More useful: Hold back some juice from fermentation. After the
fermentation is done, stabilize the cider and back-sweeten with the
juice you saved. This gives both sweetness and the unfermented-apple
character you're asking for.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: PA cider producers?
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 23:29:16 -0400
Fellow CDers,
Someone asked me recently if I knew of any commercial cider producers
in Pennsylvania. After a couple of hours searching on the web, I turned
up one winery that makes cider (one more than I had listed before).
It's Stoney Acres Winery in Nescopeck (www.stoneyacreswinery.com).
This person is doing a cheese tasting in PA and wanted to use ciders
made in the state (an added incentive is the fact that PA has some of
the more draconian liquor laws in the nation).
So, does anyone out there have any recommendations or places that I've
missed?
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
P.S. One final reminder that Cider Day 2005 will be held next weekend,
Nov. 5-6 in western Mass. (for details and schedule, see
www.ciderday.org). Hopefully we won't get the typical 10-12 inches of
rain that we have been getting pretty much every weekend in October up
here in sunny New England.
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End of Cider Digest #1271
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