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Cider Digest #1295
Subject: Cider Digest #1295, 25 January 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1295 25 January 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: good apple brandies (Dick Dunn)
distillation equipment and literature (elderkinsapples)
More Champagne bottles...... (Bradley Hunter)
Domestic Calvados ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
2006 Upper Mississippi Mash-Out results are online! ("Al Boyce")
Nutrients and speed of fermentation (Claude Jolicoeur)
RE: Pressing Pears ("McGonegal, Charles")
Cider Fermentation strategies ("McGonegal, Charles")
more nutrient management ("Mike Beck")
Grundy Tanks for cider (john brett)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: good apple brandies
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:56:10 -0700
"McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com> wrote:
> And you are right about Lairds I _think_ they might have a high-end,
> all apple product, but the one I can get here near Chicago is a lot
> of neutral spirit. Probably grape, by the way. under TTB regs, it's
> difficult to mix fruits and grains.
Apparently they've figured out how to deal with the regs. The back label
on Laird's actually says neutral _grain_ spirits. Do you suppose that was
a matter of clash of character (tastes from grape brandy not fitting with
apple brandy) or simple economics (grain alcohol presumably being much
cheaper) making it worthwhile dealing with TTB.
> I _highly_ recommend Steve McCarthy's (Clear Creek Distillery, Portland OR)
> 'Eau de vie du Pomme'. The 8 year old version is widely available. And I
> think you'll find it to be closer to the Somerset Cider Brandy (I tried
> a version offered as a collectible by a Scotch association)than calvados
> (which all taste like 'heads' to me.)
I hadn't tried Clear Creek for some years because I hadn't liked it early
on, but just got some on your recommendation. It's pretty good, and the
taste is definitely "clearer" than the Calvados I've had. We'll have to
try a blind comparison between Somerset CB and Clear Creek EdVdP here.
> ...Now the big question - what do perry pears taste like distilled?
Didn't you point out that the tannins won't come through? And the sorbitol
will stay behind...but reasoning isn't going to carry us very far on this
question! Is there somebody with a distilling license and some perry who
has tried it?
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: distillation equipment and literature
From: elderkinsapples <elderkinsapples@accesswave.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:31:34 -0400
dick
does anyone have information or literature equipment on cider or mash
distilation.
pete elderkin
------------------------------
Subject: More Champagne bottles......
From: Bradley Hunter <hunter@midcoast.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 17:13:50 -0500
Thanks to all who stopped me from going down the wrong road regarding
Champagne bottles. The sparkling NA Grape juice Champagne 'style'
bottles I collected are , indeed, considerably lighter in weight than
their true Champagne counterparts and the punt in the bottom of the NA
is not nearly as deep as in the true ones.
Good advice and certainly saved me from loading up 25 , or so, bottle
bombs.....
No harm done, as I had not started the label removing and cleaning
process so , back I go to the local redemption center with these to
trade them in for the real deal.
I did not receive any advice on my proposed priming technique to obtain
a med. to med-high carbonation in my dry .996 cider. Would a 1/2 -
3/4 cup of corn sugar boiled in a pint of water for a 5 gal. batch be
appropriate? Not looking for sweetness, just some bubbles. Would it
hurt to add a packet of dry wine yeast at bottling time, too?
Thanks,
Brad
------------------------------
Subject: Domestic Calvados
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 17:58:09 -0800
Steve McCarthy of Clear Creek Distillery in Oregon produces a number of
award winning Eau-de-Vie's and fruit brandies including an apple brandy. You
can find them at www.clearcreekdistillery.com.
On a second note, I would like to thank all of those who participated
vigorously in the competition discussion. There were a number of excellent
ideas raised and good suggestions for future competitions. This is a subject
that needs to be strongly vetted as US craft cider production moves ahead. I
applaud the BJCP for taking this task on and hope we can find a way to
provide venues to help all of us understand what a good cider can be.
------------------------------
Subject: 2006 Upper Mississippi Mash-Out results are online!
From: "Al Boyce" <aboyce@mn.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:06:06 -0600
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
The RESULTS from the 2006 Upper Mississippi Mash-Out are online!
http://www.mnbrewers.com/events/mashout/2006mashout.htm
<BLOCKED::BLOCKED::BLOCKED::http://www.mnbrewers.com/events/mashout/2006mash
out.htm>
The Upper Mississippi Mash-Out was held this weekend, Jan 20-21, in St.
Paul, Minnesota.
* We judged 561 entries from 21 different states
* 96 Mash-Out volunteers helped from 7 different states
* We awarded 84 medals, one for each of the 28 BJCP Beer, Mead and Cider
categories
* We also awarded 6 more medals for the NEW BREWER category, and the
EIS-ANYTHING category
* We awarded 5 MORE medals to the 5 brewpubs who donated to our volunteers'
"Indoor Pub Crawl" on Friday
* We awarded 2 hand-made, laser-engraved Mash-Out Chalices for Best-of-Show,
one for Beer, one for Mead-Cider
* We awarded another hand-made, laser-engraved chalice for the Midwest
Brewer of the Year program
* Entries came from 162 unique brewing teams.
* We awarded over $3000 worth of prizes to brewers from 37 different
sponsors
* Over $1000 worth of door prizes were distributed at the awards ceremony
* 100 6-course dinners were served at our Saturday night Beer Banquet
* 288 commemorative "Five Years of Pour Decisions" pint glasses were given
away
* 45 collectors item 5th Anniversary t-shirts were purchases
THANKS TO EVERYONE who entered and helped out!!!
If you weren't there - SORRY YOU MISSED THE PARTY!!!
See you next year - Jan 26-27, 2007 - St. Paul, Minnesota
http://www.mnbrewers.com/events/mashout/
<BLOCKED::BLOCKED::BLOCKED::http://www.mnbrewers.com/events/mashout/>
------------------------------
Subject: Nutrients and speed of fermentation
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:40:11 -0500
I find the recent discussion on nutrients and speed of fermentation quite
interesting and, as my ciders are probably among the slowest to ferment in
this community, I thought I could add a few nutrients to keep the
discussion alive. Just to put things in perspective, my ciders routinely
require 1 year to complete fermentation, then I bottle them, and wait
another year to drink them. Some batches do ferment more quickly, but never
in less than 6 months before bottling.
I am a strong believer in slow fermentations. As it has already been
mentioned, I think a slow fermentation induces improved flavor and smoother
feeling in the mouth. This belief was further enhanced by my participation
at Cider Day in Mass last November, where I was able to discuss and share
cider with many other cider makers.
And, by the way, never I have been able to relate off-flavors with long
fermentation. I do understand, however, that a commercial cidrerie cannot
afford to wait 2 years before selling their bottles, so they need to find
ways to speed-up the process without sacrifying too much of the quality.
So, for an amateur who wants to make an exceptionnal cider, the question
is: how to insure the slowest fermentation possible?
There are a few more obvious answers like low temperature and keeving.
Also, type of yeast is probably an important factor, although more
discussion would be required on this.
Here are some of the factors I think may have an influence:
I have found that juice from my orchard ferment much slowlier that juice
from commercially grown apples. Why? most of my trees are old standards and
have never been fertilized for over 25 years. I do prune and cut the grass,
but I don't spray for insects or scab. The apples are rather small, scabby,
wormy and the yields are low compared to commercial standards (I get a
little over a ton of apples from an acre of orchard). Also, my orchard is
in a northern location 100 km NE of Quebec City, zone 4. The trees are
stressed by the cold. I have mostly Cortlands (which have been the object
of sort of an inside joke in this forum and at CiderDay), but also over 100
varieties of apples and 20 of pears that I test for this northern location.
I assume the nitrogen levels in my apples are low and I think this is an
important factor on speed of fermentation.
The sugar level is naturally very high (S.G. routinely over 1.060 for late
varieties), so I never add any sugar. I don't know, however, if sugar
addition has an influence on speed of fermentation.
I have found that early varieties are useless for good cider - sugar
content is too low (S.G. around 1.045) and these apples ferment very
quickly, making a cider too light in alcool, hard in mouth, very acidic and
with very little flavor.
I have noted that the moment of pressing has an influence on speed of
fermentation. Taking, for example, Cortlands harvested at a certain date,
if I press the apples within a week, this cider will ferment rather
quickly. On the other hand, if I wait 6 to 8 weeks before pressing (i.e.
the apples have become slightly overripe), I will get a slow fermentation.
Would someone have an explanation for this?
Apples that had been frozen before pressing have fermented to dryness very
quickly, even if they were overripe at the time I froze them - I have no
explanation for this.
I usually press the apples to the last drop of juice (about 2 hours under
the press). And if I have the time, I make a second pressing of the pomace
the next day. I don't add water for this second pressing (I used to in the
past but found it didn't give any good) - I just break-up the cake, leave
overnight and repress next day. This second pressing gives about 20% extra
juice. However, this juice is very different in many respects from 1st
pressing juice: very clear and pale, different taste and mouth feeling.
Same S.G. and acidity level, however. I don't know if there is anything in
this 2nd pressing juice that may slow the fermentation.
On yeast, I usually use Lalvain EC-1118, which is a Champagne yeast. I have
also used Redstar Champagne and sometimes I let the natural yeasts by
themself do the job. I haven't tried any other commercial yeast, being
entirely satisfied by the above mentioned.
I also don't use any other additive to the must (sulfites, sugar, pectic
enzimes, etc) except for special cases or experimentation (keeving for
example). I generally have no clarification problem - the cider clears
itself nicely once the fermentation is completed (it might take a year
however). Nor do I have any sanitation problem even if I don't add sulfites
in the must.
Another question is how can scab be related to speed of fermentation. I
have measured an increase of S.G. for scabby apples, and also have tasted
more flavor for juice from scabby apples. It is quite trivial that the scab
fungus takes the water out of the apple, thus concentrating the sugars and
flavours. But could the fungus have a effect on nitrogen concentration? Or
on other aspects that could affect speed of fermentation?
In conclusion, I guess I can say that my way of making cider and
maintaining my orchard could be called the "method of minimum
intervention". I am not too sure on how this relates to speed of
fermentation, but it seems to work quite well.
Claude Jolicoeur, in Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Pressing Pears
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 07:35:17 -0600
Thanks to those folks who have made suggestions.
Andrew, I've considered trying the 'Pearex' - and am ordering some to
try _post_ fermentation, since I've found that pear pectins behave quite
differently from apple pectins. And watch out for pear juice
concentrate - it does some weird - umm - stuff. (That's what I get for
buying from the PRC, I suppose ;-)
In anycase, I can think of two complications that prevent me from trying
your suggestions:
1) I grind nearly straight into the cheeses. Our pressing process never
lets the pomace sit for more than maybe 10-20 minutes at most. And this
year's observation was that the shorter the sitting time, the better.
With apples, the free run collects at the bottom of the pomace tank -
but it doesn't affect how the pomace presses. With pears, we've found
that free-run to alter the consistency of the pear pomace and cause more
headaches.
2) I'll be pressing pears for distillate as well as perry. Pectinases
with any PME activity are a killer. Studies at MSU have shown that
commercial juicing pectinases raise methanol content 4-6 times.
We've thought about rigging a way to meter rice hulls into the grinder,
along with the pears - hand addition has been inconsistent.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Fermentation strategies
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:23:53 -0600
The current discussion on yeast selection / nutrient management is very
interesting.
In watching it unfold, I can't help but note that the main gists - that
fermentations need to be managed carefully in several variables, that
there are several routes to 'good' cider, and that 'great' cider is
going to be a subjective evaluation - are not exactly unique to cider.
This exact discussion quietly (usually) meaders across the pages of wine
industry journals and among [grape] wine producers. I'm beginning to
wonder if cider is even especially sensitive to these considerations
compared to wine.
(I can see several reasons why it would be - but quantitatively, not
qualitatively.)
I've recently had discussions with [grape] wine grower/producers who
argue for much more incorporation of local elements into ones products
(cultivar selection, fruit sourcing and yeasts, mostly). And if the end
result is not so successful in some kind of objective or commerce
metric, so be it. At least it's _authentic_. Learn to love it.
It didn't come up in the conversation, but I think it's a similar
attitude to the people to decry the so-called 'wine doctors'. These
consultants travel the world over, spreading proven 'best practices'. A
side effect is that globally, wines are becoming more similar. Better,
perhaps, but more similar.
I, personally, don't see this as 'McDonaldization', transmogrifying
local traditional practice with just another form of of globalization.
BUT, I know there are those who do see it that way.
I don't think there's a simple answer. The cynic in me recalls Tom
Lehrer's lament about hard-core folk singers, the people seem to "Equate
'authenticity' with 'artistic merit' and 'illiteracy' with 'charm'".
Both tradition-oriented and pool-best-practices strategies exist in the
commercial cider marketplace. The two strategies often aren't even
mutually exclusive (despite the rhetoric that sometimes flies). My only
suggestion at the moment to is urge people to buy local first, regional
second and global last. AND DRINK MORE CIDER!
(About a maid, I'll sing a song. Rickity-tickity-tin...)
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: more nutrient management
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:44:52 -0500
Re #1294
Mr. Lea thank you for the link to Information regarding orchard nutrient.
This will no doubt probably affect my orchard management. However, I have
been trying to maintain an orchard that only gets what it needs when it
needs it. It seems that my Honeycrisp blocks(never used for cider)always are
asking for calcium.
As far as the French Ciders you speak of I have little or no knowledge of
these except from readings/web searches and the digest. The area I live in
is probably typical of much of the mid-west, being, only or mostly the big
brands are available of any kind of alcohol beverage. A cider vacuum to say
the least. I did not know they were better than other styles.
However, I 100% agree that "stinky" and low nutrient
fermentation may not necessarily correlate. As far as yeast. I probably
never would attempt to try a wild fermentation on a commercial cider making
platform. The risk of bad yeast strain developing and as I stated before,
being a neophyte, it is something I have not been willing to try. (I have
fermented many 5gal. carboys naturally with mixed success) I have been
using yeast from winery supply houses. These are ones they recommend for
cider. I have stuck mostly with Pries de Mousse, Lallemand DV10 & Red Star
Epernay II. They have always given me consist fermentation. I am
particularly impressed with EP2 for the very fruity/flowery aroma and
flavors it produces. I have heard much about but not used the White Labs
Cider yeast. Does it suffer from the same ailments of the other manufactured
yeasts? I also must ask what is fast and what is a slow fermentation? My
own fermentations last 6 to 7 weeks (typically) and fermented at what I
might say is a cool temperature, 50+/- deg. F. And yes a "minimal" amount of
nutrient is added when off odors become present. I like this option as
being compared to adding copper sulfate to fix it later. The use of
nutrients is not taken lightly and one should exercise caution, overuse is
probably more damaging than underuse IMHO.
Terry Bradshaw also writes on nutrient management and competitions in #1294
I stand corrected on keeved entries as you & Gary Awdey point out. I can not
recall if they were noted that way in the judging process. Glad to hear that
people are doing well with this practice and it makes me want to make an
attempt at it. Orchard Mgt.: My cider blocks have not had a ground applied
nutrient in over 10 years. They will get a shot of foliar nutrient if there
is a frost/freeze event during blossom. That is about it for nutrient.
Foliar Calcium applications are made if bitter pit is consistently present.
However, trees are pruned to get production over the entire tree canopy.
Thinning applications are made to not let the tree set to much fruit.
Intensive care yes, but for sure different than my retail apple blocks. I
have not had much trouble of loosing fruity aromas/flavors when I use cider
nutrients correctly. I appreciate the glows comment, however, It has turned
into something of a green onion.
mike beck
st.johns, mi
------------------------------
Subject: Grundy Tanks for cider
From: john brett <jbrett@eastlink.ca>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:47:10 -0400
Wondering if anyone out there has experience with using stainless steel
grundy tanks for carbonating cider. They are generally available and quite
reasonably priced on the used market.
It occurrs to me that it might even be possible to use them to do a
charmat method naturally sparkling cider. Does anyone have information on
the safe working pressure rating for these kind of tanks?
John Brett
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End of Cider Digest #1295
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