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Cider Digest #1301
Subject: Cider Digest #1301, 18 February 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1301 18 February 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
CD #1300: Northern Cider Apples ("Luedtke, James")
Re: Proulx and Nichols and siphons (Dick Dunn)
Re# Digest #1300 "starting a siphon" ("Mike Beck")
Re: Northern Cider Apples (Rob Stiles) (Claude Jolicoeur)
slow fermentation temperatures (Seth Jones)
Apple tree pruning (David Pickering)
Microbial instability (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: CD #1300: Northern Cider Apples
From: "Luedtke, James" <james.luedtke@cgi.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:04:32 -0500
Rob Stiles asked about cider apples hardy in zone 4.=20
This subject was treated by Claude Jolicoeur, in CD #1085, from October
2003.=20
A number of traditional English Cider varieties appear to be hardy in
USDA zone 4, Yarlington Mill, Bulmers Norman, Browns, and Chisel Jersey
among them. See CD 1085 for Claude's complete list.=20
My orchard is in Minnesota, zone 4. I've had the 4 varieties listed
above without winter injury (not counting the darn voles!). Also have
had Major and Harry Master's Jersey for several years, but without a
'test' winter, it's too soon to tell if they'll last long term.
By the way, Rob, if your comment about November frosts is in regard to
the listed ripening dates for these apples, don't worry. Our ripening
dates run 3 to 6 weeks earlier than what's often listed. I think what's
listed has generally been the English dates.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Proulx and Nichols and siphons
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:11:29 -0700
Gee, apparently it's my opinion, rather than the siphon, that sucks!
I should have pointed up several of the rough spots in Proulx/Nichols
rather than picking on just one (especially THAT one, I guess)...for
example, P&N pretty well muddle pH _vs_ acidity.
As to starting a siphon by sucking on the end of the hose...
Erroll Ozgencil <errollo@gmail.com> wrote:
> I used to be deathly afraid of contaminating my beer/wine/mead/cider
> that way until someone observed that the bacteria living in your mouth
> are going from a pH neutral, non-alcoholic environment that's almost
> 100F to an acidic, alcoholic environment that's about 40F cooler.
I used to be cavalier about starting a siphon with my mouth when brewing
beer until I had a bad batch and a couple marginal ones, and started
looking around for causes. Someone pointed up mouth bacteria as a
possibility. But it was only a possibility, and again, it was beer,
which is higher pH.
Still, what organisms can survive in both environments and even make the
transition? I'm not taking many bets against bacteria surviving! Even
yeast can survive the two you mention although they might not take the
shock very well. I had heard the idea of swishing your mouth out with
vodka before starting the siphon but decided that was unlikely to be
particularly effective if the possibility of contamination was real.
Also, we might consider that the pH of the mouth varies from one person
to another (which is apparently the main reason some can taste "mouse"
taint in a cider and others cannot without help, for example), and the
bacteria present can vary widely as well, both from person to person and
time to time. Some of us just have more culture than others!
Even if I can get away with starting a siphon with my mouth I'd avoid it
somewhat on the matter of style--just as I serve cider in clean glasses.
No, it's not the same thing, but (to me anyway) there's somewhat the same
feeling about it.
As for technique, Terry Bradshaw commented:
> And by the way, I am not afraid to start a siphon by mouth if necessary,
> which seems to be more than 50% of the time.
...and Jason MacArthur also said:
> OK, I admit, that particular "archaic boner" is still a regular part of
> my cider making- how do I start a siphon without it?
...and I assume others are thinking the same thing.
There are gadgets on the market that start a siphon by a pumping action
(one that comes to mind is shaken up and down which does the pumping),
but those seem like overkill and also an extra cleaning chore. I do it
thus for a carboy: Put just the racking cane in the carboy. Hold the
siphon tube in a "U" and fill it with clean water. Fit one end of the
tube over the cane. Pinch the other end, drop it down, let go, and the
siphon will start. I let the water and the usual initial bit of grunge
drop into a waste container until I see clear cider in the tube, then
pinch momentarily to get the tube over to the receiving carboy and let
it go.
Of course, if you're working with corny kegs you can use CO2 and you don't
even need a siphon.
While I'm thinking about it, a note on equipment: If you like to fuss
about (i.e., against) using plastics, note that there are stainless racking
canes available. Williams Brewing for one has them; I don't know where
else they might be found. As for the tubing, what's available in brew
shops seems to be a vinyl that comes with an odor of its own and holds
odors more than I'd like, so years ago I switched to a food-grade silicone
tubing. It seems to retain odor less; it's more flexible; you can boil
it if you like. (For that matter you could autoclave it, although even *I*
am not that obsessed!)
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re# Digest #1300 "starting a siphon"
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:27:16 -0500
Jason MacArthur asks how to start a siphon without sucking on the hose. CD
#1300
A trick I have learned (this subconsciously could be pulling from the
Papazian book), Fill your hose with completely with water. Take your thumbs
and cover both ends. Place the product "out" side of your hose lower than
the product "in" side of your hose. Carefully place your product "in" side
into your bucket or carboy so that the end is completely submersed and
release your thumb. The water in the hose will start siphon as long as
product "out" side of the hose is lower than the product "in" side of your
hose. When you release your thumb from the product "out" side of your hose
the water will pull your cider through the hose. You may discard the water
(drain or bucket)before you rack or siphon it directly into new container
with cider if you don't mind watering it down a tad. Always use clean hands
or food grade gloves, sanitary equipment, and distilled water(or at leased
boiled water).
I do not think sucking on a hose to start siphon is so bad. I often will,
However, I always do a vigorous gargle(usally several) with apple brandy
before I do. My head only hangs low only from the several apple brandy
gargles.
There are many types of pumps out there that are self priming also. These
are expensive and not practical for home use.
Mike Beck
St. Johns, MI
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Northern Cider Apples (Rob Stiles)
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:16:33 -0500
In Cider Digest #1300, 15 February 2006
>Subject: Northern Cider Apples
>From: Rob Stiles <rman_55976@yahoo.com>
>Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:50:45 -0800 (PST)
>
>I live in Minnesota (zone 4) and I am interested in planting some
>bittersweet or bittersharp cultivars. Does anyone have any information on
>cider apples that would be cold hardy enough for the area? Another thing
>to take into consideration is that we often get a first frost near the
>end of November.
Rob,
Here near Quebec City, also zone 4 (this is Canadian zone, but pretty much
equivalent to USDA), I have tested a few European cider varieties that have
proven hardy in this climate, and that mature early enough for my short
season.
They are: Brown's Apple, Bulmer's Norman, Breakwell's Seedling.
These have not performed as well as above, but still useful:
Yarlington Mill, Muscadet de Dieppe, Coat Jersey, Tremlett Bitter, Porter's
Perfection.
And, finally, the following either died from the cold or matured too late
to produce any usable fruit:
Stoke Red, Chisel Jersey, Medaille d'Or.
Hoping this helps,
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: slow fermentation temperatures
From: Seth Jones <sethjones@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:29:32 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
I'm wondering if some of the members could share their optimum temperatures
for slow ferments. I think my batch this year was way too warm and dryed
out in about six weeks. I know there are other factors involved in ferment
time but am looking for a good guideline.
Thanks and cheers
Seth Jones
------------------------------
Subject: Apple tree pruning
From: David Pickering <davidp@netwit.net.au>
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 21:14:48 +1100
In #1298 Jason asks about dwarf trees with the lower branches having
growth equal to the theoretical central leader.
You could live with it - the New Zealanders came up with a training
method called "Hawkes Bay" where the tree had multiple vertical limbs
with fruiting branches growing out from them. Sort of a very tight or
closed vase.
To retain the central leader tree type, bend the offending side branches
down (clothespegs, string and bricks works well). The flatter the branch
the less vigorous they will be and the intended central leader should
regain its dominance.
David Pickering
"Linden Lea" Huntley Road, Orange NSW, Australia
------------------------------
Subject: Microbial instability
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:36:40 +0000
Jason MacArthur wrote:
> Andrew Lea wrote:
>
>> But since we were working at the time on fruit coming from the then
>> new and relatively heavily fertilised bush orchards, we were often
>> seeing numbers of 300 mg/L. These were regarded as fast fermenters
>> and moreover as producing ciders which were likely to give
>> microbial instability problems (eg renewed fermentation) in
>> storage.
>
> I am wondering if Andrew would be willing to elaborate on the
> connection between fast fermentation and microbial instability.
> What is the correlation between these two qualities of a juice, and
> what types of "microbial instability" result?
Simply that high amino nitrogen levels in the juice gave fast
fermentation. At the end of cider making the residual soluble nitrogen
levels remained higher than usual. Hence when a commercial cider was
bottled with added sugar for sweetness, if there was some sort of
breakdown on the bottling line or inefficiency of the pasteurisation
process, then regrowth of yeast was more likely because the nitrogen
levels would support it. In ciders from traditional orchards this was
less likely because what little nitrogen there was would have been
totally scavenged by the yeast during fermentation.
Remember I'm going back 30 years or more. In those days there were no
in-line flash pasteurisers in the UK cider industry. Standard technology
was a 'tunnel' pasteuriser where the sulphited filled and capped glass
bottles on a moving rubber belt were scalded with sprays of hot water
for 20 minutes or so followed by cooling treatment with cold water.
Individual bottles would often escape the full intensity of the process,
caps might dislodge or be contaminated, and lack of the CIP and aseptic
systems which we are used to today meant that stray yeast from filler
heads, pipework etc was more likely to enter the bottles. Vicious
spoilage yeasts like Zygosaccharomyces bailii were (and are) also
sulphite resistant so that particular hurdle was ineffective, and if the
heat failed too then there was no protection. So there was a potentially
significant failure rate. Under those circumstances, failed bottles
with low nitrogen levels might be relatively safe, while failed bottles
with high nitrogen levels could and did explode in the warehouse, in the
retail store or in a customer's home!
Nowadays we like to think the problem is pretty much licked, but you can
never take microbial stability of a sweetened fermented beverage for
granted!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1301
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