Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1174
Subject: Cider Digest #1174, 4 November 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1174 4 November 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
("Dyer, Jonathan A.")
Wet cloths; brown crust; cider apples (Tim Bray)
Cloudy Cider ("johng058")
Keeving Report (Scott Smith)
Re: Cider Digest #1172, 27 October 2004 (Michael Arighi)
Re: Exploding bottles ("T. J. Higgins ")
Opinions, experience from the Cider Digest readership ("John C. Campbell III")
Re: Belt presses in the US (Dick Dunn)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:
From: "Dyer, Jonathan A." <dyerja@health.missouri.edu>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:40:21 -0500
"Now here's the strange part: The smell of the perry is not vinegary,
alcoholic or even very pearlike. It smells like cheese. Like a strong,
hearty, pungent cheese. Maybe a strong cheddar or bleu. A friend, who is
not a judge, called the smell a cheese smell also without any prompting
from me.
I've done a little googling and haven't found a relationship between
perry and cheesy smells. I don't know much about what a proper perry
should be like. Is this perry horribly bad, or is it worth keeping? I
don't have a lot tied up in this -- about half a gallon.
Is using wild yeast a bad idea for perry? There's still time to change
my next batch.
Any input appreciated.
Cheers,
- - -Mike"
Mike - It sounds bad to me. My guess is that there is a contamination
issue and the fact that it was a small volume of must in a large carbouy
may have contributed.
Jon Dyer
------------------------------
Subject: Wet cloths; brown crust; cider apples
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:20:23 -0700
>Regarding the increased difficulty of using wet cloths-
>When trying to force liquid through holes you are working against the
>cohesive forces of water, which produce surface tension. The smaller
>the holes, the more difficult it will be to push water through -- or air
>depending on your perspective. When trying to use wet press cloth you
>are working against the surface tension of thousands of tiny beads of
>liquid.
Makes no sense; the cloth becomes saturated with juice almost immediately
anyway, so why would the surface tension be different for a second pressing?
I rather suspect the reason is that solids are migrating into the cloth
during the first pressing, and partially clog the pores, so that in the
second pressing you start out with a less-permeable cloth. But I have to
say that I have not noticed this effect myself; second batch seems to press
out much as the first, all else being equal.
>During first stage fermentation when foam appears , a brown crust forms
>over this foam, should it be removed like in beer making ( bitter taste
>) or let it dissolve back in ?
I've never heard of removing that during beer making - the foam (krausen)
is supposed to help protect the beer from infection, etc. and I'd never
heard of trying to remove it. Seems like a great way to contaminate your
beer. But there is probably a lot about beer making that I don't
know... (Are you sure you aren't thinking of the scum that forms during
boiling of the wort?)
For cider making, on the other hand, you might be seeing the famous
"chapeau brun" at the very onset of fermentation. If this is accompanied
by a sediment settling to the bottom, then you are getting a "keeve" or
"defecation" as in French cider making. In that case you definitely want
to rack off the clear cider, leaving the sediment and the scum behind. You
might end up with a stable, naturally-sweet low-alcohol Normandy-style
cider. See Andrew Lea's Web pages for more information about keeving.
>my first batch of cider last weekend. I read that you should grind the
>apples and let them sit for a period of time before pressing.
You can do it that way, but it's a bit tricky and usually not necessary.
> Does anyone
>have recomendations on how long to wait.
See Andrew Lea's pages for more information.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/Content2.HTM
>and would like to know if anyone has any recomendations of varieties good
>for cidering.
Oh, boy, where do I start? :-) I am growing about 25 varieties of cider
apples, though some have only just started to produce. Here are my top
recommendations:
Sweet:
Golden Russet
Roxbury Russet
(these two make a great sweet base, and even a decent cider all by
themselves. Both are very productive.)
Bittersharp:
Black Twig (an American variety that I think is basically a bittersharp)
Porter's Perfection (a bittersharp that produces well for me)
Kingston Black (Reputed to make a great single-variety cider, but check
to be sure it will do well in your climate zone; also be aware that the KB
available in the US tends to ripen early, long before the other cider
apples will be ready)
Bittersweet
Yarlington Mill (aromatic, soft tannin)
Fillbarrel (very productive, good tannin)
If I was starting from scratch, those are the ones I'd go with. If you
have limited space and want to take a chance, you could plant a block of
Kingston Black (assuming there are other apple trees in the neighborhood
for pollination) and go for a single-variety cider; but that's a risky
strategy and probably would get you cider every other year...
Cheers!
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Cloudy Cider
From: "johng058" <johng058@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:03:40 -0400
I am making my first ever batch of Hard Cider this fall.
For this purpose I acquired five gallons of fresh cider from a local
Cider Mill that's been pressing cider on the same site since 1837.
http://www.buildingphotos.com/bloomfieldhills/FR-cider.shtml
The cider was placed in a carboy and campden tables added.
24 hours later Cote de Blanc yeast was pitched into the cider.
Also Pectic Enzyme Powder was added.
There was a vigorous primary fermentation (O.G.1055) and after about
12 days the cider was racked, and topped off with fresh cider
for secondary fermentation (F.G. 1000).
Every thing seems to be going well, the cider is a bit on the cloudy side
and I was wondering if there was a straight forward way to clear it up?
Or should it be left well enough alone?
Any input would be appreciated.
Regards,
JohnG
Beverly Hills, Michigan
------------------------------
Subject: Keeving Report
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 18:53:56 -0500
I recently did my first successful keeve with the aid of PME, and here
is a report on how it went. The apples were random seconds of
probably a dozen different common dessert kinds. I let them macerate
for six hours at 45 degrees. This is the first time I had let the
pomace macerate, and it both increased the yield of my small screw
press to almost 3 gal/bu, and made the juice more "stringy" tasting
which I believe means more full of the pectins needed for a keeve.
After pressing I cryoconcentrated (fancy word for concentrate by
freezing) to get the sugars and acids up a bit, ending up with
SG=1.065, pH=3.7, TA=.49 as malic, gals = 4 or so.
Then I added the PME (Valley Enzymes Crystalzyme AES) and CaCl2 at
rates in Gary's instructions, and 48 hours later I had a keeve! There
was an issue of which one to add first, enzyme or CaCl2, Gary's
instructions said one way and the Klercidre ones the other. I emailed
Gary and he thought the CaCl2 was added later if it was done in a big
tank with flotaters. I added the CaCl2 first; each of them I dissolved
first in a pint of juice (separate pints for each one). My guess is
that for a small batch where it is just stirred in, the order doesn't
matter.
I didn't have any idea what an optimal keeving temperature would be. I
have a fridge I can set to any temperature, so I wanted to pick the
best one. At the time I started the keeve, the juice just happened to
be at about 65 degrees. The French Klercidre insructions that Gary
sent to me (translated by Andrew I believe--thanks, Andrew!) say that
the keeve takes 12-24 hours in the 15-17C temperature range (59-63F),
and so I decided that was a good temperature--at a colder temperature
it can take weeks!
One other thing I found surprising is how the head formed. I performed
the keeve in a 6-gallon glass carboy so I could see the whole thing. I
had thought the gel formed at isolated spots in the vessel that then
rose to the top; what happened for me was that the entire juice loosely
jelled, and then the thing lifted and compressed to form the brown cap
jelly at the top. One other thing I noticed was that there were gas
bubbles trapped in the gel, by-products of the keeving chemical
reaction I would guess, that lifted the gel to form the cap. I had
heard it was CO2 from the fermentation that lifted the cap, but the way
the gel immediately had all these gas bubbles in it right after it had
formed gave me the impression that the gas was a by-product of the
keeving reaction.
Here are some pictures of early in the keeve (
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~scott/keeve/initial.jpg ), and a day later after
the cap had compressed (
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~scott/keeve/day-later.jpg ). The cap continued
to compress another inch after the second picture was taken. I waited
about three days after I first saw a keeve to siphon off the juice.
This seemed to work out fine, the cap was coherent enough that I didn't
have any problem getting every bit of juice siphoned out, without
getting any bits of gel coming over in the siphon. Notice by the way
in the first picture the gas bubbles that are plainly visible. Also
notice how the juice is totally clear. The gel even lifted up all the
gunk that had settled on the bottom, the bottom was crystal clear after
the keeve.
Overall, my impression is very positive of the procedure; it will be
interesting to see how the final product comes out. It is now taking
its time getting a natural yeast fermentation going. I have one more
batch I will process similarly. I eventually want to try adding the
enzyme to the pomace to also increase the press yield, but it is hard
to evenly distribute it and I don't know how much gets left behind and
so I'm not sure how much PME should be used.
Scott
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1172, 27 October 2004
From: Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:28:20 -0800
On Wed, 2004-10-27 at 22:14 -0600, Bob Capshew wrote:
> Subject: Cider Pressing Cloths
> From: "Bob Capshew" <rcapshew@epowerc.net>
> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 23:03:04 -0400
>
>
> I use cotton cloth from Army surplus powder bag material to hold
> pommace
> from apples and pears. The apples/pears are ground through a
> "garbage"
<snip>
> The system works well but I am trying to understand why the wet
> (reused) press cloths do not allow as much juice to flow as the
> dry cloths do. I would like to reuse the cloths to save on cleaning.
> Is there a physics rule that I am missing?
I'm thinking it's probably the simple physical property that cotton
swells slightly when wet, as it has absorbed liquid. That's one reason I
use nylon mosquito netting, which is non-absorbent. It plugs somewhat
from pulp caught in the mesh, but not too much, but my grind is most
likely considerably coarser than yours, as I'm using a hand-cranked
Happy Valley model.
- --
Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Exploding bottles
From: "T. J. Higgins " <tjhiggin@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:58:53 -0600
Mike Camp wrote:
> What the heck is going on? These were bottled in used beer bottles with
> crown caps.
If by "used beer bottles" you mean "disposable beer bottles,"
that is your problem right there. The glass in disposable
bottles is too thin to support in-bottle fermentation/
carbonation. Get yourself some old-style returnable bottles.
Returnables are getting harder to find, but with a little
legwork you will get your hands on them. Homebrew shops
sell them, but they are rather expensive. Try your local
beer distributor(s). The ones here used to sell them for
just $5 per case, but have since discontinued the practice.
Homebrewing friends who have gone to kegging are also a
good source.
Champagne bottles are excellent for cider, but crown caps
don't always fit well. If not, you'll need corks and wires.
Grolsch bottles with the flip-cap are OK for cider.
One-liter plastic bottles are great for cider; the tensile
strength of the plastic is greater than that of steel.
Alas, plastic is not good for long-term storage since it
is gas-permeable.
Verify the specific gravity readings to make doubly sure the
primary fermentation is complete before priming and bottling.
For priming, I normally use 1/2 cup of corn sugar per 5
gallons. That works out to just under 1/2 teaspoon per 12-oz
bottle. I would consider your use of 1 tsp per bottle to be
on the high side.
One trick to save your remaining bottles is to open them to
release the pressure and then install a new cap. Yes, you
lose carbonation and flavor by doing this, but it beats
another exploding bottle.
T.J. Higgins
Huntsville, AL
------------------------------
Subject: Opinions, experience from the Cider Digest readership
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:27:03 -0500
In another year, year and a half, I'm expecting to have enough apples to
do something with myself as opposed to the outsourcing of juice (and
fruit) I've done for several years now. The on-going problem I'm having
is that I can't even seem to garner even an opinion from the various and
sundry tree suppliers; "Edible Landscaping", the now defunct "Northwoods
Nursery", "Trees of Antiquity", "Cummins Nursery", "Big Horse Creek
Farm", "Vintage Virginia Apples" and "Raintree Nursery" as to potential
"output" of the trees I've bought from them over the years. All good
Nurseries, all good stock but not much assistance in helping me get a
handle on what comes next.
The reason I pose these questions is that I need to gauge the scale of
my juice processing equipment and cool storage space, and have been
trying for quite a while to 'gestimate' the impending apple 'yields' of
my orchard. I spent more than 6 years researching species before we put
the actual 'orchard' in though I'd already put some standards in 10
years ago.
I know (as we all do) that fire blight is an issue on the east coast
(knock on wood) and that several of the species below are habitually
biennial producers, and some like the Ashmeads, are predicted to have
reduced size fruit and diminished yields as the trees age. I am trying
to maintain as much of an organic production as I can possible do ...
These things in mind, can anyone on the list .... has even one of these
species comment on their own production quantities for me and any other
observations based upon their own experience growing these varieties?
(including at what age do you recall they started producing?)
Certainly biennial trees are going to have zip production in off years
but ... what has your experience been in "on" years? I also realize
that 'terrior' plays a part in output as it does in flavor of the
fruit. I'm in a "coastal plain" circumstance a half block from the
Severn River and a mile from the Chesapeake bay and a tree in Indiana is
likely to behave differently. I also realize that if you have a
blighted and wizened Kingston Black sitting in your orchard putting out
a handful of apples a year, well ... your statistics won't help me
much; but if you have a 'normal' Kingston in your orchard ... (or a
normal tree of any of the list below) ... could any of you venture a
guess what your experience of bushel outputs per species for me? Here
is what I have in orchard:
1 Fameuse (Snow Apple) ten year old stock no fruit
1Winter Red Flesh Ten year old stock no fruit
1 Milo Gibson (ten years in ground ... no fruit)
2 Hewes crab (one of them a ten year old tree) also a one year whip in
ground)
2 Esopus Spitzenburg on on G.16 (one of them a ten year old full-sized
tree)
6 Kingston Black 2 on G.30 three on M7 (4 and 2 years respectively in
ground)
2 Medaille d'Or- 3 years in ground
3 true Foxwhelps (3 year old feathered stock in ground) last two due
dormant March '05 (apples of antiquity)
3 Ashmead's Kernal (4 years in ground)
1 Dunkerton late sweet (2 years in ground)
1 Harry Masters Jersey (2 years in ground)
2 Karmijn De Sonnaville (4 years in ground stock)
2 Cox's Orange Pippin's (4 years in ground)
1 "Browns apple" (3 years in ground)
1 Chisel Jersey on G.16 (2 years in ground)
1 Ellis Bitter on G.30 (2 years in ground)
1 Porters Perfection on G.16 (one year in ground)
1 Tremletts Bitter on Bud.9 (3 years in ground)
1 Kidd's Orange Red (feathered stock two years in ground)
1 Shinsei (three years in ground)
2 Harrison's (6' tall specimen put in ground last weekend) the first is
a one season whip
1 Campfield (6' tall specimen put in ground last weekend)
4 Chestnut Crabs (2, expected in march and 2 more on Geneva 11
expected dormant, from Jim Cummins fall or march)
and ... finally a stray a perry pear due in March, a "Wignals Longdon"
on betulifolia (to be pollinated by my 5-graft asian pear).
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Belt presses in the US
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:08:15 -0700
In CD 1172, I noted several cidermakers in the UK going to belt presses
recently. In CD 1173, several notes indicated that belt presses are
already common, but seemingly for larger producers.
I'd heard that belt presses had been around for some time but had various
problems that might have prevented more widespread adoption.
Also, the notes in CD 1173 pointed out the substantial cost--twice, mention
of around $30K US. Having had a look at the Voran web site (thanks to Mike
Faul for the link, and by the way Voran is Austrian as the link indicates,
not German as I'd said in my original note, duh) there's a complete line
of these presses, spanning an order of magnitude through-put. So where
does the $30K figure apply? (And is that delivered in the US? As I said,
these things are heavy!)
I wasn't expecting to be able to replace my basket press with a belt press
at my current amateur production! But it would be useful to understand the
trend in belt presses, particularly whether they're getting cheaper and/or
moving toward smaller useful production volumes.
Con Traas mentioned:
> However, having spoken to some Dutch juice-makers, I am also aware of
> some problems. Principal among these is that the solids seem to have a
> different size than those where a rack and cloth is used. The result of
> this, for juice-makers, is that a cloudy juice can end up with too much
> settled sediment. However, for someone who is only interested in making
> cider, this should not be a problem...
In either case, can pre-settling the juice reduce the problem, or does that
take too long?
Charles McGonegal wrote:
> Dick, I've seen belt presses in any serious cider production here in the
> Midwest. I'm surprised more people _don't_ have them...
...
> The small ones seem to do 150-200 gallons an hour from a unit that barely
> takes up more space than our home-built 28" rack and cloth...
If I get the figures right, the little Voran would seem to be down around
50 gal/hr. But is the price commensurately lower?
> As a side note, I seem to recall that all the US cidermakers at Terra Madre
> were using rack and cloth presses.
Why should that be? Is it just volume (the size of the operation)? Or
could it also be the nature of the fruit? Cider apples are easier to
press, so maybe that pushes the tradeoff point - to get rid of the pack
press nuisance and spend the money on a belt press - up to a higher
production volume. Is part of it tradition?
> There's a 'squeezebox' type of press, too. Kind of like a horizontally
> mounted rack and cloth press. They seem rare - but are out there.
As I recall, Westcott Bay had one of those. (Rich? Susan?)
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1174
*************************
