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Cider Digest #1231
Subject: Cider Digest #1231, 8 June 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1231 8 June 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Subject: Bottling Cider ("rayblockley")
Re: Bottling Cider (Tim Bray)
Re: Protecting Merchants ("John C. Campbell III")
Pear Rootstock Compatibility (james cummins)
Cider Press ("John Lyman III")
Cider in New England? (Rod McDonald)
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Subject: Subject: Bottling Cider
From: "rayblockley" <rayblockley@ntlworld.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:26:46 +0100
Hi Bob,
I re-use screw-top glass containers myself, but clear glass 2 x litre
jugs which are roughly 4 pints (uk style). I've not had any problems yet
myself (apart from getting the *expletive* labels off...), but obviously
I make sure they are scrupulously clean and sterile. The main thing to
check with care is that the seal provided by the screw cap is 100% air
tight - if it's got a rubber or plastic seal inside the cap, check it
isn't damaged or perished.
Good luck. Cheers, Ray.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bottling Cider
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:14:07 -0700
>Subject: Bottling Cider
> I am a novice cider maker. I have 15 gallons of three different
>types of cider that is ready to bottle.
Wow, jump right in! :-)
>My question is this: Is it O.K.
>to use half gallon "growler" brown glass beer bottles with screw tops?
>It obviously is fine to use with beer.
Anything that works for beer should work for cider. Beer is generally more
susceptible to infection than cider.
My experience with screw tops has been that they seal very well. Too well,
in fact - an explosion occurred because I had "temporarily" stored some
unfermented juice in a reused Dry Blackthorn bottle, then forgot about
it... Also I have done the same thing with reused PET bottles, and the
pressure those things will hold is amazing.
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Protecting Merchants
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:44:41 -0400
Tim; the "merchant" did me no real 'wrong' ... he sold me healthy plants, (I
bought stuff, not just apple trees from them for several years) all he did
was neglect to put any kind of caveat in his catalog that there was a good
likelihood that if you were south of about northern PA. there was a
possibility that the trees he was selling needed more frost days than your
climate would afford it. And (my point of annoyance) when I questioned them
about it some years later .... they simply wouldn't respond to email from
me.. Had I the knowledge regarding tree stocks that I have now, I would have
pressed him for that opinion in the first place and not ordered much (if
any) fruiting stock from him. That would be the message to take away from my
experience; if they're pushing cold hardy as a feature of their stock and
you are not in the same planting zone as the supplier is, then you better
look before you leap.
As Diogenes Laertius of Anacharsis (Circa 200) native of Laerte in Cilicia,
wisely (sadly) observed a few years ago, "...The market is a place set apart
where men may deceive one another..." So I think things have never really
changed.
Witness the 'description that Eric at Slioam Orchards presented. If you look
it's exactly the same "boilerplate" that someone dreamed up that was in the
catalog from the nursery I got my "Sunrise +" from years ago ..
Fiesta. Sunrise has high consumer acceptance as a fresh market
variety, and should make a good addition to a blended cider.
Eric, Siloam Orchards, Uxbridge Ontario Canada
. Except that the " ... and should make a good addition to a blended cider
..." which unless Eric has blended it or has some other scientific reason he
could share with us on the fruit ... we all know that by and large desert
apples might taste good but rarely have much flavor contribution to "hard"
cider. So the ball's in your court Eric. You've grown the apples? (Sunrise
Plus) what other apple would you compare the Sunrise's flavor, brix, type of
the fruit to (dessert apple for apple 'juice', or bittersweet, or
bittersharp? What say you since now I've learned this trick of forcing the
tree to fruit from Jim Cummins .. maybe I'll actually see some production
off of it.
jccampb
------------------------------
Subject: Pear Rootstock Compatibility
From: james cummins <jnc1@localnet.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:54:14 -0400
I've seen no publication on compatibility of the perry pears on quince
rootstock. Dick, I wasn't aware that the Brogdale collection was on
quince.
First, the good news: all pears, including the regular Europeans, the
hybrids (e.g. Kieffer), the Asian pears, and the perry varieties, seem
to be compatible on standard pear (Pyrus communis), Pyrus betulifolia,
and probably Pyrus calleryana.
Included in P. communis would be Bartlett seedlings, Winter Nelis
seedlings, and the clonal Old Home x Farmingdale hybrids. A new stock,
Pyrodwarf, was recently introduced from France. Bartlett and Winter
Nelis make the conventional big standard trees, of course. Both seem
pretty tolerant of most of the potential ills that can beset pears,
including wet feet.
The OHxF series opened up a whole new ball game. They offer varying
degrees of tree size control, from the semidwarfing OHxF 40 and OHxF 87
to the very vigorous (standard) OHxF 97. With the exception of OHxF
51, they are very resistant to fire blight and to collar rot, all have
excellent anchorage, all induce earlier and heavier fruiting than we
see on the standard seedling stocks. Pyrodwarf is said to make a
smallish semidwarf tree. We have no experience with its orchard
performance in the United States. The clonal stocks have one
compelling disadvantage: cost. We figure that a tree on an OHxF or
Pyrodwarf stock has to sell for at least $3.00, maybe even $5.00, more
than a comparable tree on seedling. Pyrodwarf and most of the OHxF
stocks are patented, so there is royalty to be paid. More important,
though, is that we consistently get lower budtake on all the clonals
and average tree size (and hence price) is a notch or two lower. All
the clonal stocks are quite difficult to propagate, and in many years
they are simply not available.
Pyrus betulifolia is our mainstay for two reasons: (1) the strain we
use is one selected by Reimer at Oregon State many years ago for its
resistance to fire blight; (2) Asian pears on BET have fairly
consistently given somewhat larger fruit size. BET appears to have
about the same winter hardiness as the other standard stocks. In the
nursery, it is even thornier than Winter Nelis -- downright unpleasant
to work with and really nasty on tires.
Pyrus calleryana is widely used by the southern nurseries, but it is
not adequately winter hardy even in the relatively mild winter climate
we have here at Geneva.
We are beginning testing of perry varieties on Provence quince. We
should evaluation of initial incompatibilities in about 3 years.
However, the classic black line incompatibility symptoms seen on the
Bosc/quince combination does not show up until the tree is 5 to 9 years
old.
Bottom Line: if I had my choice, I would be using OHxF 87 under my
perry pears and not worry about the extra cost.
//Jim
www.cumminsnursery.com
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Press
From: "John Lyman III" <jlyman3@lymanorchards.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:16:53 -0400
[Janitor's note: Since the following came to the digest, not to me, I just
let it run as-is. Please contact John off-list if you're interested.]
Dick,
I was wondering if I could use the digest to let subscibers know that we
are selling our 36" rack and cloth cider press, complete with potato
hopper apple collector, takeout conveyor, grinder, and pomace pump. We
also have stainless steel storage tanks, piping, an automatic
filler/bottler, and bottle conveyor line. It was all in good working
order when we moth-balled it after deciding to outsource our cider
production to another cider producer in the area. I could provide more
detailed information as to manufacturer, model #, etc to anyone
interested.
Thanks,
John Lyman III
Lyman Orchards
Middlefield, CT
------------------------------
Subject: Cider in New England?
From: Rod McDonald <rodmcdonald@actewagl.net.au>
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:35:45 +1000
Cider people,
For a couple of weeks at the end of September I will be travelling to
NYC and then New England. Does anyone know if there is a list of cider
makers in the NE region that you can visit, to look, learn and sample?
Thanks
Rod
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End of Cider Digest #1231
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