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Cider Digest #1236
Subject: Cider Digest #1236, 28 June 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1236 28 June 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Keeving timeframe (Andrew Lea)
Frederick (Andrew Lea)
Re: Fruit tree precocity (Tim Bray)
Re: Keeving Timeframe (The Grant Family)
Keeving progress reports? (The Grant Family)
Crab Juice Density ("McGonegal, Charles")
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Subject: Keeving timeframe
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:19:58 +0100
Stuart Grant wrote:
> I received 14mL, enough for 200L of apple juice. Given the time
> delay, I assumed a modest activity loss and added 8mL to 100L juice.
> I also added 40g CaCl2 for the recommended 400ppm Ca++ and Cl- ions
> as well as 50ppm SO2 to knock off undesirables and delay the action
> of "good" yeasts. ...........The Sturmers were very ripe - falling
> off the tree for the most part - and included a considerable amount
> of windfalls (which were washed, dried and held for 3 weeks before
> juicing). ............Last year's pH values for the same juices were
> ~3.4 for the Sturmer juice and 3.1 for the crab apple
> juice........... I'm getting a little worried that after nearly 2
> weeks I have seen very little that I would describe as evidence of
> keeving. Only today, I saw the first appearance some stuff that
> resembled 1cm round globs of egg-white. There are also some specks of
> surface mould,
> Two questions: i) what should I do about the mould? I'll skim it off
> and sanitise the lid, obviously, but should I add more SO2? ii) what
> can I expect in terms of keeving? I believe I have done everything
> correctly so far, but have my chances of a successful keeve been
> dashed by the presence of mould? I seem to remember Andrew's
> description of early keeves included some mould so I'm not too
> distraught. Is there anything I should do to ensure the keeve works?
You should certainly skim off the mould if you can. I wouldn't add any
more SO2. You have already added 50 ppm and at low pH (< 3.4 ) that may
have suppressed the wild yeast rather a lot. Also that is a fairly low
pH for the esterase enzyme to be working at so it may be slow. I don't
think a small amount of surface mould interferes with a keeve. Keeving
does require some incipient yeast activity in order to give buoyancy to
the keeve gel (even though you have no gel yet!). Did you add the SO2
first and then wait till next day to add the calcium chloride followed
by the enzyme separately? The additions should not be all at once or
the enzyme may be inactivated. I have had keeves take up to 2 weeks
before they start so do not give up hope just yet! The 'globs' may be
what you're looking for. They may be the start of something great or
they may be all you ever get!
To get a significant gel at all requires the presence of pectin + its
demethylation (by the enzyme) + calcium. I don't know the pectin content
of Sturmers - perhaps it's not very high. If you take one part of juice
and add to it two parts of pure alcohol (or denatured alcohol aka
methylated spirit here), then shake it, you should see a clot of pectin
forming after a few minutes if there is enough there. If you do not see
this then there is not enough pectin in the juice and keeving will never
work. Just one other thought - since the juice was commercially pressed
- - they didn't already add a broad spectrum pectinase, did they?
In general terms I think it's worth pointing out that keeving was a
technique developed in France and England for specific low acid, high
tannin, high pectin cider apples. In those cultivars it can work well
and reliably. The new enzymes help this but even they are not magic.
Keeving was rarely if ever used successfully with sharp or bittersharp
UK cider cultivars. In high acid apples like Sturmers keeving may never
work well for a variety of reasons - but we have no data! Don't be too
disappointed if you find it doesn't - just regard yourself as a pioneer!
Andrew
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Frederick
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:35:44 +0100
Andrew Clarke wrote:
>I have 12 Fredericks on seedling
> rootstock growing as traditional standards in my cider Orchard in the
> Forest of Dean (2.5 acres), ancestral home of the Frederick (100 miles
> west of Andrew). They are developing as very upright trees, limited
> spurring and quite tall compared to other varieties on same rootstock of
> similar age. They are quite majestic at 4 years of age although still
> 1-2 years off bearing.
Maybe the seedling rootstock and standard habit makes a difference. My
dwarfs sound like quite different trees!
>Seem to be doing very well on my old red
> sandstone soils (low nutrient ancient pasture) slightly acidic and
> iron/mineral rich. This maybe the difference between me and Andrew whom
> I believe (maybe wrong!) is on a much more calcareous (higher pH) soil.
Certainly the pH of my soil is high (ca 7). The trees grow well enough,
just that they are unruly and impossible to discipline!
> I also doughnut mulch them every year around this time to help with
> moisture and weed suppression which seems to do them good. Growth is
> strong and vigorous (not so much thin and whippy but very upright) with
> limited leaf growth on main stems and spurs. Sorry can't tell you what
> fruit is like yet but looking forward to them fruiting!
Mine are not upright at all and difficult to train to a centre leader.
They are quite strong but put out lots of whippy branches which bear at
the tips. Not much proper spurring really.
This must be very confusing for John the original enquirer! Here are two
people with quite different views of the same cultivar!
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Fruit tree precocity
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:33:54 -0700
Jason asked about Major trees. I have two of these and they have been slow
to come into production. Mine, planted in spring 2000 (on M7), did the
snowball bloom last year as well, but only set a few fruits. This year
looks a little better, but it's hard to compare as everything is a little
off this year.
The other end of the spectrum is King David (on G30), which was planted at
the same time but grew twice as fast, and last year set an amazing crop of
fruit. This year they set more than any other trees, despite terrible
spring weather. Haven't yet bottled the King David blend from last year...
it sure is pretty in the carboy though!
It is typical for young trees to bloom but not set much fruit. For that
matter, it is also typical of some varieties to do that later in life as
well... I would not expect much from a 3-year-old tree, although M9 is
supposed to encourage early production.
Major isn't the worst performer in my orchard; that distinction belongs to
Margil, also on M7, planted at the same time as (and right next to) Major
and King David. It snowball blooms every year, and usually sets no fruit
at all. Last year, a terrific year for pollination, I think I got three
apples from two Margil trees. I'm reworking them into King Davids!
Cheers,
Tim
=====================================
Listen to Oak & Thorn, two hours of Celtic music
Sundays 9-11 AM Pacific time
http://www.kzyx.org/pages/listen_now.html
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Keeving Timeframe
From: The Grant Family <grants@netspace.net.au>
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:19:02 +1000
Hi all,
Thanks to Andrew and Tim for their responses (and to anyone else whose
response I haven't seen yet).
I was impatient and decided to act before getting your responses but
somehow did as you both suggested anyway. That is, I skimmed the mould from
the surface (as Andrew said) and added a very small amount of sodium
metabisulfite solution (equivalent to 8ppm for the entire batch) to the
surface of the juice.
Unfortunately I'm still not seeing any signs of keeving. Andrew suggested
two possibilities for this: i) I added the SO2, the CaCl2 and the PME at
roughly the same time (although each was dissolved in separate portions of
juice and added separately) which may have inactivated the PME. Can anyone
explain how this occurs? Also, ii) I may not have sufficient pectin in the
juice for a keeve. I now know this because I performed Andrew's
alcohol-pectin test and got a negative. So I don't think this batch will
ever keeve... ;(
In any case I still have enough PME for more than 50L juice AND when my
brewing mate comes back from France in another months we have nearly 400kg
more Sturmers to juice. Re-reading through others' keeving reports from the
Northern Hemisphere's autumn/fall, I'm convinced that even with low pectin
apples, maceration should provide enough for keeving. We weren't able to do
this with the current batch, but maybe next time we can.
Again, thanks to everyone for their responses. I'll keep you Northerners
informed (and jealous that it's not apple season there!) of our keeving
practise.
Cheers
Stuart Grant
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.
------------------------------
Subject: Keeving progress reports?
From: The Grant Family <grants@netspace.net.au>
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:20:25 +1000
Hi all,
Having just re-read all the available keeving reports that Northern
Hemispherians sent in ~6 months ago, I'm interested in how your cider is
progressing. Anyone care to give the digest an update?
Thanks
Stuart.
------------------------------
Subject: Crab Juice Density
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:03:46 -0500
In CD #1235 Stuart asks;
"...is crab apple juice always this sweet?"
My experience has been 'yes'. I will qualify that by saying that I only
deal with crab apples that 1) we grow and 2) are at least as big as
cherries.
I've used, or at least sampled Dolgo (3 different sports), Ralph Shay,
Hopa, Red Scarlet, Chestnut, Americus, Wickson, and a yellow skinned,
yellow-fleshed wild seedling I call Cricket Creek Yellow. I'm still
waiting on Geneva and Hewes to produce.
All are at least 16 Brix and range up to about 21 Brix at my site (Hopa
weighing in highest.) Remarkably (?), they all still float in water.
Of the other apples in my collection, I'd lump Lady Apple in with the
'good' crabs based on fruit size and flowering habit. Likewise with
Binet Blanc.
They vary widely in tannin content. Chestnut and Dolgo have little and
Red Scarlet is overpowering. Binet Blanc is supposed to have some, but
I suspect that it's like any European bitter in a hot midwest climate -
blah. Nice flavor, but only very subtle, earthy soft tannins.
Speaking of tannins, and specifically - how many tannins - I've noticed
that the water at my place, loaded with minerals as it is, turns purple
when it comes in contact with low levels of certain tannins. Rinsing
out a merely juice-damp plastic pail turns the rinse water dark purple.
Now, to quantitate the effect!
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1236
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