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Cider Digest #1225
Subject: Cider Digest #1225, 22 May 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1225 22 May 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Frequin Rouge ("McGonegal, Charles")
Keeving (Andrew Lea)
Frequin Rouge (Andrew Lea)
(long) Stopping fermentation, keeving, and my results and (tblists)
Re: Stopping Fermentation ("Gary Awdey")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Frequin Rouge
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:54:57 -0500
David pickering asks about Frequin Rouge in CD#1224 - especially as it's
classification as 'bitter'.
>From my research, David, French cidre makers use a slightly different
classification system than the English. The main catagories are douce,
douce-amer & amer-douce, amere, acidulous and complete.
So sweet-bitter and bitter-sweet but no 'bitter-sharp'. By Douce, they
tend to mean perfumed, as well as simply sweet.
Try looking at the website of Mordus de la Pomme - the Society of the
Bitten Apple at www.fruitsdebretagne.net
I have a Frequin Rouge in my collection. It's only had a couple apples
so far. I seem to remember that it's a sharp apple with hard bitters -
but my notes fail me, there are none recorded.
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Keeving
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:32:46 +0100
David Pickering wrote:
> With regular rackings and the onset of colder weather the
> fermentation has slowed such that after 5-6 weeks the SG has dropped
> from 1055-1060 to around 1015-1010. Has anybody had any inspired
> moments since the subject was last raised, as to how we can stop the
> fermentation at this point?
>
> In searching for info I came across a little booklet - Cidermaking,
> by Michael B Quinion, 1982, Shire Publications Ltd - which in regard
> to producing cider for "the noble estates" says to do what we are
> doing ie keep racking (keeving - as in France). Any other thoughts
> from the digest would be welcome.
That's about the only way. You can possibly combine it with filtration.
The idea is to remove each successive yeast crop so the cider eventually
becomes so starved of nitrogen it can ferment no further. Its success
rather depends on how much nitrogen was there in the first place.
> Mr Quinion also quotes that "the pulp is left for a day in an open
> top cask", pressed, then the juice is "put into open top casks for a
> few days, with a lttle lime added". The last seems a little strange.
> I thought that acid was generically good so why would lime be
> advocated?
The principle of keeving is that the pectin in the juice is enzymically
demethylated to the pectate anion, which combines with calcium to form a
calcium pectate gel. This rises to the top of the juice and with it
traps much of the nitrogenous material which is cationic. (Glossary -
anions are negatively charged, cations are positively charged). The
juice is then racked away from the gel ('le chapeau brun' en Francais).
Hence the amino acids required for growth are also removed and the
subsequent cider ferments slowly. Repeated later racking then helps to
maintain a naturally sweet cider.
The lime is a source of calcium to be sure that enough is present. You
don't need a lot (just a few hundreds of parts per million) and it
doesn't affect the acidity appreciably. Nowadays we prefer to use food
grade calcium chloride (the chloride ion keeps the yeast growth down) and
some of us also add a special pectin methyl esterase enzyme (cue Gary
Awdey who has worked hard to make such an enzyme available to cider
hobbyists in North America. Those of us in Europe can buy it in from
France).
More on my website under 'Science of Cidermaking Part 4 # French and
English Tradition'.
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Frequin Rouge
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:30:10 +0100
David Pickering wrote:
> In searching for Frequin Rouge on the net to find out more about it,
> I found two references: Cummins Nursery and the 2004 Anuual Report
> from Mt Vernon / WSU
>
> The suprising thing was that both showed a classification of
> "bitter". I have acquired most of my cider knowledge from British
> sources because Britain was the source of most of the cultivars
> imported into Australia. I have accepted the conventional wisdom of
> four classes, ie sweet, bittersweet, sharp & bittersharp and now I'm
> presented with a fifth.
>
I suspect this is a semantic misunderstanding across the English
Channel. The 'traditional' British system was actually devised early in
the 20th century by Professor Barker at Long Ashton and contains the
four categories mentioned. The parallel French system divides primarily
into three categories, 'douce' (sweet), 'amere' (bitter) and 'aigre'
(sharp). In this classification Frequin Rouge is classified as 'amere'
or bitter (source - Bore and Fleckinger 'Les pommiers a Cidre'). Since
this is a French (Breton) cultivar I suspect the term has been
translated straight from French sources.
However, things are actually more complicated than I describe because
French cidermakers do often hybridise the three terms, and do not
necessarily see sharp boundaries between the categories (described in
one French manual I have as 'assez elastique'!). Hence 'douce-amere' for
'bittersweet' is commonly encountered in French literature, as well as
'amere-douce' and 'amere' on its own. You will have to ask a Frenchman
for the subtleties here but I rather think that 'amere' on its own
refers to what we call a 'hard bittersweet' while 'douce-amere' is more
of a 'soft bittersweet'. In effect it is not a chemical description,
but a sensory one, so the perceived sugar / tannin balance will be part
of the definition.
Even more confused now?
Andrew
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: (long) Stopping fermentation, keeving, and my results and
From: tblists <tblists@pshift.com>
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:01:32 -0400
At 09:27 AM 5/19/2005 -0600, David wrote:
>Subject: Stopping fermentation
>From: David Pickering <davidp@netwit.net.au>
>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:18:39 +1000
>
>Despite a dry year we have been able to press out about 400L of juice
>this year for us plus 200L for a local winemaker to work his magic on.
>
>We are fermenting ours in 60L poly barrels using native yeasts. With
>regular rackings and the onset of colder weather the fermentation has
>slowed such that after 5-6 weeks the SG has dropped from 1055-1060 to
>around 1015-1010. Has anybody had any inspired moments since the subject
>was last raised, as to how we can stop the fermentation at this point?
>In searching for info I came across a little booklet - Cidermaking, by
>Michael B Quinion, 1982, Shire Publications Ltd - which in regard to
>producing cider for "the noble estates" says to do what we are doing ie
>keep racking (keeving - as in France). Any other thoughts from the
>digest would be welcome.
>
>Mr Quinion also quotes that "the pulp is left for a day in an open top
>cask", pressed, then the juice is "put into open top casks for a few
>days, with a lttle lime added". The last seems a little strange. I
>thought that acid was generically good so why would lime be advocated?
Re: David's question from last digest, I have been working a bit more with
halting fermentation lately. There is so much to cover under this topic, so
I'll just touch on a few things. The best quick resource for learning a
bit about this type of cidermaking, I'll plug Andrew Lea's site
(http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/) and specifically the
page on finishing a sweet cider
(http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/part4.htm).
That said, I have been aiming towards a smoother product over the years. I
manage an experimental orchard planted primarily to desert apples, and so
with judicious blending with local crabs have been developing a decent but
often bone-dry drink. Here's where I've changed things:
1. Since I've run the show there for about five years, I have been able to
manage non-research plots to give me fruit low in nitrogen. I manage these
by fertilizer and pruning practices, withholding any N inputs and leaving
the trees intentionally a bit shaggy. The fellow who squeezes my juice
also avoids running sprayed fruit through his mill, so these trees are a
bit stressed with bugs and disease, and may offer better cider flavors
because of it (purely speculation). Unfortunately the block which I have
used primarily for this, and from which I have finally learned to make a
pretty good cider, is scheduled for removal this year. (Fortunately my own
trees should start bearing before too long).
2. Wild yeast. I have used numerous cultures and always return to the wild
yeast, particularly the stuff collected from the abovementioned mill. I
sulfite to 50-75 ppm at the squeeze, then let it go on its own.
3. Since buying a house in 2002, I have been able to carefully control
fermentation temperatures after building a cold room in the
basement. Basically it's just a framed up and walled off insulated corner
of the room. I do not have any active cooler in there, but I can manage
the room in winter to maintain 35-40 Fahrenheit if desired by venting to
the outside through a small window. My furnace is on the other side of the
wall and with a good apple wood fire cranking the basement at large will be
80 F. With the window closed, the room can maintain 50F all winter, and
maxes out at 65F in the summer. Fermentation is begun outdoors in cool
October temperatures (see keeving below), then the juice siphoned through
the window to the cold room where I maintain it around 45F until about
December, then turn the cooler on and let it simmer all winter. Ideally I
think I might let it go to 1.015 or so at 50F, then chill the room and
rack, letting it simmer after that until spring or whenever it
stabilizes. This winter I may have chilled it too quickly, as a good bit
of cider (seven carboys) is stuck around 1.020, a little sweeter than I'd like.
4. Keeving. In 2003 I tried a quick and dirty keeve, not using any enzymes
or even the right chemicals (I had some gypsum and potassium chloride on
hand). Let me note that a keeve is different than racking, as alluded to
in the previous post. A keeve is performed on pre-fermented juice and
serves to further knock the nutrient load down to starve the yeast into
early submission. Even if you can't stop the yeast early (sweet), I
believe that the slower ferment produces a fruitier, more aromatic
cider. Anyway, my 'semi-keeve' in 2003 seemed to work fairly well (see
awards below).
In 2004 I took part in Gary Awdey's enzyme project (thanks, Gary, you've
got some coming one of these days), where the cider was treated properly
with PME enzyme, and Calcium Chloride. Performing this keeve outdoors in
October in chilly Vermont took awhile, and I confess I racked the juice
into the basement before the complete chapeau brun had formed. I did,
however, rack it off of a good bit of gelatinous gunk. The cider was then
allowed to settle again in carboys or an oak barrel where the keeving
process again took hold. Unfortunately I was leavng for a week in Arizona
so had to rack early again, but I did get the beginnings of the 'brain in
the jar' (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/keeve.htm)
and managed to leave a good bit of gunk behind. This double-half-keeved
juice fermented really slowly in the glass, and today, seven months later,
is still around 1.020, but working a little quicker with the rise in cellar
temperature that came with spring. Interestingly enough, I keeved one batch
solely in a carboy as opposed to the 200 liter drum outside, and racked it
only once. This batch fermented a tad quicker than its bulk-keeved
counterpart (same original juice) and was bottled/kegged at 1.016.
5. Chemicals, as necessary. With the previously mentioned sweet cider in
bottle/keg, I knew I would have to avoid refermentation. I occasionally
use sulfite at bottling, but don't worry about it much with higher alcohol
(7%), dry ciders. With this stuff coming in around 4.5% abv, and being
quite sweet, I added 50 ppm sulfite and a dosage of K sorbate to help it keep.
Results? (http://www.mashers.org/comp_2005/comp_results.html)
I entered three ciders this year in the Vermont Homebrew Competition. I
haven't bothered with the comps in some time, disillusioned by the old
standards and what I considered poor judging criteria. Well, with the new
AHA guidelines, I went to it.
Cider 1: Standard Cider, Common: This Was the 'double-half-keeved' juice
from 2003, mostly dessert (Liberty, Haralson, Nova Easy Gro) fruit with a
touch of Redfield crab. Fermented cold, In glass, I bottled when the juice
had settled clear but with a touch of residual sugar. Final gravity was
1.002. First Place.
Cider 2: Standard Cider, English: Same blend above, with an additional 30%
juice consisting of crabs (flame and Golden Hornet) and Poverty Lane cider
fruit (Stoke Red/Ashton Bitter). Fermented in a well-used whiskey barrel
(bourbon once, Canadian whisky at least once, and this was its second batch
of cider). Fermented bone dry, with a tart, tannic taste. Second Place.
Cider 3: Standard Cider, French: It was sweet and a bit fizzy from forced
carbonation so I called it French. But on second thought this should have
bees in the Specialty/other category. Anyway, this was the 2004,
carboy-keeved cider, bottled at 1.016. The juice blend used a lot of
Redfield crab, a red-fleshed apple which colored the cider red and confused
the judges. It was also a bit on the too sweet side. Didn't place.
Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject for now.....
Sorry to take so long.
Terry B
================
Terence Bradshaw
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
tblists@pshift.com
(802)229-2004
1450 feet, zone 4A/B?
The views represented are mine and mine only........
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Stopping Fermentation
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:37:00 -0400
In CD #1224 David Pickering wrote:
> Mr Quinion also quotes that "the pulp is left for a day in an open top
> cask", pressed, then the juice is "put into open top casks for a few
> days, with a lttle lime added". The last seems a little strange. I
> thought that acid was generically good so why would lime be advocated?
When the pulp is left for a day before pressing the enzymes present
naturally in the fruit (including pectin methyl esterase) help to begin
breaking down the physical structure on a molecular level. This may improve
yield somewhat by breaking down cell walls to permit greater release of
juice but of more importance is the greater amount of pectin that ends up
suspended in the juice. If you have a sufficiently large concentration of
pectin in the juice and add a sufficient concentration of calcium ions (lime
is a traditional source of this) then the calcium binds the suspended pectin
together through a process of molecular cross-linkage into a gelatinous
mass. Ideally this mass rises to the surface (the Chapeau Brun or "brown
cap") buoyed by the small bubbles of incipient fermentation, and becomes
more compact, leaving clear juice below. One of the things that this
keeving does is bind many of the impurities (eg spoilage bacteria) that may
be present in the juice to the so they may be removed with the brown cap.
Another important thing it does is bind up and remove some critical
nutrients (amino acids, often simply referred to as the nitrogen) so that
yeast action is partially inhibited. Fermentation in cider produced by this
method is slow, usually done at fairly low temperature to produce more
desirable phenolics. Ideally after a successful keeve the growth of yeast
will deplete the remaining critical nutrients. These nutrients are removed
with the yeast by racking the clear juice away from yeast after it settles.
It may take more than one racking to remove enough of the nitrogen.
However the combination of nutrient depletion and the alcohol produced
during fermentation (and CO2 pressure that develops after the cider is
bottled) helps to inhibit further yeast growth and fermentation before the
sugar is entirely consumed. This process permits the production of a
RELATIVELY stable cider with lower alchohol and higher residual sweetness
than would be produced otherwise. There are other ways to improve the
stability to meet our modern concept of shelf life (eg pasturization or
addition of preservatives) but this was a traditional way to produce very
pleasant, sweeter cider and keep it that way for significantly more than a
few weeks.
Gary Awdey
Eden, New York
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1225
*************************
