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Cider Digest #1181
Subject: Cider Digest #1181, 1 December 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1181 1 December 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
cider flavor wheel (Gary Burris)
Re: Taste Expectations (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: cider flavor wheel
From: Gary Burris <pcsplusonline@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:13:36 -0800 (PST)
Hey all,
I've read that a flavor wheel exists for cider, but have not been able to
find a copy of it. Google turns up nothing. Any ideas?
Thanks
Gary
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Subject: Re: Taste Expectations
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:50:47 -0700 (MST)
Re articles in CD 1177-1179 by Charles McGonegal and one by Rich Anderson,
on the old matter of whether cider tastes like apples: I've got to
disagree with Charles, from my personal experience, on dry ciders: I
generally find they don't taste or smell anything like apples. The
taste and aroma are -reminiscent- of apples...or at least I think so, but
I might be convincing myself because I think that should be so.
Charles is correct that T.C. Mits generally doesn't know what a decent
fresh apple smells or tastes like (the curse of Red Delicious), but I
don't feel that's so much true of the folks on the digest here.
As to wines and wine grapes, I have the same feeling: no, wine doesn't
taste like grapes to me. Again, some of the tastes are reminiscent of
grapes, but no, I don't get anything that really says "grape". There are
various "fruity" notes, of course. Charles asked how many folks have
actually tasted -wine- grapes (not table grapes), and that in general is
a good point. But...if you've ever visited a winery in the fall...try to
tell me you didn't snitch a few grapes off the nearest vines to taste them!
I find (again, reminder, this is all -personal- experience and reaction)
that dry, still ciders are the least likely to have any specific notes of
apple fruit character. And yes, I can taste cider apples and then taste
the juice and then taste a cider...and it just doesn't connect for me.
If I add tasting from the cider as it ferments, I can follow the path of
changing taste/aroma. But if I step back and taste a cider apple or the
fresh juice, and then taste a cider, there's too much distance between
them (to me) to say they are "like" one another.
One case where there's an obvious apple-like character is when a cider is
fermented out, then sweetened with juice. But in that case I often find
the tastes to be jarring--the fresh juice has one set of flavors and the
fermented cider has another set, and they often don't marry. Even worse
is when such a cider is severely pasteurized and it picks up a "cooked"
taste, sort of like cider with applesauce added. (I'm not saying that a
good cider -can't- be made by back-sweetening with juice, only that there
are pitfalls in doing so.) So to the extent that these ciders remind me
of apples, I'd rather they didn't!
I'll go along with Charles's idea that he does get the character of fresh
apples in cider, if he'll go along with the idea that I generally don't--
and I think I'm not terribly atypical in that respect. At least there are
enough folks like me that it's going to be necessary to discuss why cider
doesn't (necessarily) taste like apples.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1181
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