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Cider Digest #1199
Subject: Cider Digest #1199, 13 February 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1199 13 February 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Eric's question about Coutes Jersey apple (Claude Jolicoeur)
bag in box (samuel billing)
bag-in-box (various replies) (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Eric's question about Coutes Jersey apple
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:56:37 -0500
In CD 1198, Eric asked
>Does anyone have info on Coutes Jersey....
>Thanks, Eric, Siloam Orchards, Uxbridge Ontario Canada.
I grafted Coutes Jersey a while ago, got the scions from the Canadian
Clonal Genebank. Since there is no information in the literature about this
variety, I contacted Margie Luffman who was (and probably still is) the
curator of the genebank and we came to the conclusion there had possibly
been a transcription error somewhere in the pipeline and that this apple
would probably be the Coat Jersey. I have seen a description and picture of
Coat Jersey in the book "A Somerset Pomona" by Liz Copas, and, although I
can't be 100% sure, the picture looks quite similar to the fruits I have
harvested.
If some British reader know of pictures of Coal Jersey on the Net, I would
appreciate if you could share the reference so I could make other comparisons.
P.S. Eric, in a previous post, you asked about some other cider apple
varieties. I have a few of them. Contact me off list.
Claude Jolicoeur
cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca
Quebec.
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Subject: bag in box
From: samuel billing <samuelfromme@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:45:08 -0800 (PST)
Dick
Recently u asked about availability of bag in box systems for small cider
producers. I have found one such system only it is sold without the box It
is made of plastic lined mylar and is not intended for long term storage
of wine. It is sold by Home Brew Heaven.com for $2.95 and hold 5.5 liter.
Other wine producer suppliers may have similar containers.
Sam Billing
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Subject: bag-in-box (various replies)
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:56:40 -0700
combined reply to various replies to my original...
Dave/Jen Halliday wrote:
> We are looking at doing keg sales to individuals and the
> Quoin Party-Pig system looks very nice.
> It's for carbonated beverages only -- you use a disposable
> bladder to hold the product inside a 2.5 gallon PET bottle.
This is an interesting complement to bag-in-box, since the Party Pig is for
carbonated beverages and bag-in-box is for uncarbonated.
> Overall cost per unit is under $40 but except for the
> pressurization pouch and the bladder, it is completely reusable.
> Cost of the consumables is about $5
The $40 for the unit isn't bad if it lasts for a while, although $40 is
also roughly the cost of a used SS keg in good condition. The $5
consumable seems steep to me at $2/gallon.
Andrew Lea wrote about bag-in-box:
> A manual fill version of this has been available in the UK for some
> years from Vigo as the 'Manucube'
> http://www.vigoltd.com/commercial/productinfo.asp?ID=77
(In the Manucube, the exterior box is a hard plastic shell which opens up
to take the bag and latches shut around it. It's 15 liters [about 4 US gal]
capacity.)
> I have worked professionally with some of the commercial systems over
> the years, mostly when they go wrong!. The bags are not as robust nor
> as impermeable as people would have you believe - they may not leak
> liquid out, but they can readily leak air in through 'pinholes' in the
> layered flexible packaging or around the seams, hence they can spoil the
> wine within. That's why they are used primarily at the cheap end of the
> market. I think the technology may have improved a bit in the last
> decade but I would still be a little wary of it, myself, until the case
> is proven!
It appears to me that it has gotten a lot better in recent years, and also
as a result it's being used for better wines than in the past.
> Also if there is any overpressure from continued or renewed fermentation
> (eg MLF) they will balloon out and then they _will_leak! The contents
> have to be pasteurised or sterile filtered to eliminate this
> possibility, AFAIK.
As to leakage and pressure both, I've poked at a few of these bags and did
some testing on one of them. After roughing it up a bit (trying to see if
I could pop the tap fitment loose from the bag--failed), I inflated the bag
as much as I could by mouth--to where it was a taut pillow shape. It held
air with no noticeable loss in pressure for a couple days. I'm not
suggesting this says the bag is impermeable, only that it's not delicate
and the permeability is low. There was nothing like "pinholes". I still
wouldn't use it for a carbonated cider (and even the manufacturer [Scholle]
says the packaging is only for uncarbonated beverages), but I think I
wouldn't worry a lot about residual sparkle.
After holding the mouth-inflated bag for a couple days, I put a compressor
to it and brought the pressure up to about 40 psig. The bag distended at
that pressure, but the seams and tap insertion held. I couldn't notice any
leakage from the bag itself. (I messed up the tap valve with my compressor,
so I couldn't do a long-term test.) But this is at almost 3 atm, which is
about as much pressure as you'd want in an ordinary (non-champagne-type)
glass bottle. I'm more encouraged now to look at this packaging for
holding cider for a while.
Curiously enough, a discussion of bag-in-box packaging started up on the
ukcider list about the same time I sent my note. The packaging is of
interest not just to home cidermakers but to small commercial craft
producers. It's seen as a possible alternative to the poly-keg, which
is a rigid plastic barrel and therefore must allow air in as the cider
is dispensed. Supposedly Vigo Ltd has them in 3, 5, and 10 liter sizes,
which sounds pretty good.
Over on ukcider, Rose Grant commented that she'd kept cider in one of these
bag-in-boxes for quite a few months before it started to go off much. So,
yes, short-term storage...but we're thinking many months, not weeks. The
bag-in-box wines carry dates (some "packing date", some "best before")
which one can extrapolate to guess that the winemakers give them about a
year of acceptable storage from when packed. I'd expect cider to be more
delicate, and with less alcohol to protect it the acceptable shelf life
would likely be shorter.
Somewhat related, Andrew Lea's web page has a discussion of PET bottles
with both dry and naturally-conditioned sweet ciders, with the conclusion
that PET is OK for dry ciders for medium-term storage but can encourage
too much fermentation in bottle for ciders in which yeast and sugar are
still present. I -think- this is mostly off to the side of bag-in-box,
since those wouldn't be used for a "package-conditioned" cider.
I don't know what the bags are made of. Some have a metalized mylar which
might be the only layer; others are definitely multi-layer.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1199
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