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Cider Digest #1201
Subject: Cider Digest #1201, 21 February 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1201 21 February 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Cider Making Course Announcment ("Drew Zimmerman")
Tristan's request for Australian info (warwick)
Re: Cider apples in Victoria, Aust (The Grant Family)
Re: Cider Digest #1200, 18 February 2005 (Jack O Feil)
Re: Ice cider (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Archives (Claude Jolicoeur)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Cider Making Course Announcment
From: "Drew Zimmerman" <drewzimmer@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:17:18 -0800
The Fruit Horticulture Department at WSU-Northwest Research & Extension
Center in Mount Vernon is again conducting a week-long class in "Cider
Making - Principles & Practice" April 25-29, 2005, for professional
level training in techniques of hard (fermented) cider production. Fee
for this course will be $675 per person and is limited to the first 16
reservations for reasons of space. The fee includes course work and a
buffet lunch on the last day of the course.
A separate 4-hour session on "Sensory Evaluation of Hard Ciders" will be
held the following Saturday, April 30, 2005 from 10:00 AM to 2:00 PM.
Fee for this session will be $45 per person, with a limit of 24 persons.
The fee includes sensory evaluation training, an appetizer buffet and
take-home cider samples from the Mount Vernon trials to evaluate.
The instructor, Peter Mitchell of Mitchell F&D Ltd., is a cider expert
and trainer from Worcestershire, England who specializes in providing
intensive workshops, including both class material and lab sessions
where participants gain hands-on experience in cider making, testing and
quality control. This course work is designed for commercial and
potential commercial cider makers as well as home and amateur
cidermakers.
Details of the course syllabus, fees and registration can be found on
the Mount Vernon Fruit Horticulture web page:
http://mtvernon.wsu.edu/frt_hort/fruit_horticulture.htm
If you have any questions please contact Jacky King <kingjack@wsu.edu>
Tel. 360-848-6132
------------------------------
Subject: Tristan's request for Australian info
From: warwick <tokolosh@penalvagold.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:33:38 +1030
Tristan in Victoria, Australia might like to have a look at this website
which has an Australian flavour.
http://users.chariot.net.au/~tokolosh/
Warwick
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider apples in Victoria, Aust
From: The Grant Family <grants@netspace.net.au>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:17:14 +1100
Hi all,
Tristan McLeay wrote:
> If I understand
>correctly, good cider is made from cider apples. I am, however, at a
>loss of how to find them. Does anyone on this list know where I can
>find cider apples or cider apple juice in Victoria, Australia (nearer
>to Melbourne for preference)?
The Orange Agricultural Institute is growing cider apples in Australia. As
far as I know they still have an applicable orchard. See
http://www.agric.nsw.gov.au/reader/deciduous-fruits/h4111.html . I realise
this isn't near Melbourne but I don't know of any other places growing
them. It might be worth trying the apple-growing area an hour north of
Melbourne on the way to Bendigo.
FWIW, I'm in Tasmania (the "Apple Isle"!) but have never heard of cider
apples being grown here. They're just not common outside of places where
they were traditionally grown.
My attempt at making traditional cider from dessert apples has been fun and
somewhat successful. If you want to emulate the tannins found in cider
apples, find some crab apples or quinces - you will have to juice these
yourself. I was told to use about 20% crab apple juice for the right level
of tannins, although this sounds quite high to me. In any case my 2004
season cider used 8% crab apple juice because that's all I had, and it came
out with a nice background bitterness with some astringency. Having never
tasted REAL cider I have no idea how tannic it would be.
French style cider is better suited to dessert apples in my opinion, since
it has sweetness to balance the overabundance of acid you'll find on most
dessert apple juices. Andrew Lea's cider making pages (at
http://www.ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/ ) have some great
info on basic cider making and particularly the process of "keeving" -
which basically removes nutrients from the juice so that the (wild) yeasts
cannot ferment it as far, leaving it slightly sweet.
Anyway, I wouldn't get your hopes up about finding cider apples/juice
because it's just not common down under. I also wouldn't get caught up in
the myth that you NEED cider apples to make cider. Those of us who aren't
fortunate enough to live in cider apple growing regions still manage to
make cider - albeit of a different kind.
Cheers
Stuart Grant
Hobart, Tasmania.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1200, 18 February 2005
From: Jack O Feil <feilorchards@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:49:25 -0800
I mentioned fermenting pulp a year or so ago. I got the idea from
a customer who lived in Canada who stopped at our fruit stand, maybe
thirty years ago. Some way or another the conversation got around to hard
cider and in the area where he was from, he said they did ferment the
pulp and believed the cider was better that way. When I submitted the
idea to this forum, Andrew Lea(I think) said that is done but is very
messy. I added some pulp from some crabs that had very little juice but
plenty of tannin so I ground up the apples and added that to the juice I
was going to ferment and yes it was a problem straining the pulp from the
fermented product but as a beginner I thought I had made a good batch
although I didn't have any product from the more experienced to compare
it to. Now the thought crossed my mind to put the pulp in a burlap bag in
a large primary fermentation container, then when fermentation was
complete remove the bag and press the fermented pulp that was left in the
bag. A little extra work but maybe worth it. Does anyone out there know
the old time traditional procedure?
Jack Feil feilorchards@juno.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Ice cider
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 01:20:29 -0500
In CD 1200, Jason MacArthur wrote:
> Ice Cider- Presumably the fruit freezes on the tree, and water
>becomes ice leaving a concentrated juice in the apple. Is the
>concentrated juice extracted from the frozen fruit, and if so how are
>the apples ground or mashed up? Or is the fruit allowed to freeze and
>thaw, becoming desiccated as part of this process? Or is the fruit
>merely "super ripened" as a result of freezing, and all of it's juice
>used for cider making? Has anybody on this list experimented at all
>with different techniques?
******
Some apple varieties will stay in the tree and freeze there (Cortland is
one in my climate) but most will fall before. You may also use a freezer or
pick and leave the apples outside if it is cold enough. The idea is to
press the apples while still partly frozen. Apples should not be ground -
it will make a mess. Same if they are completely unfrozen and have waited
too long before pressing. The apples however have to soften before you
start pressing. The more frozen the apples at the time you press, the less
yield you will get, but the more concentrated the juice will be. Be warned
that the arithmetics are not favorable: you may get 1/3 of the yield for an
increase of 50% of the sugar content - hence the cost of ice cider.
However, if the apples are just completely unfrozen, juice yield may
actually be better than by classical grinding-pressing. I do this for
overripe apples that would be difficult to press the standard way.
The juice obtained from apples that have been frozen is very different from
normal juice - perfectly clear, with a different taste and consistence. The
first time, you will ask what this is. Once fermented, however, it makes
normal cider. Fermentation usually goes faster.
Claude, in Quebec
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Archives
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 01:34:45 -0500
In CD 1200, Tristan McLeay wrote:
>Sorry for asking a species of question that's probably been asked so
>many times already, but searching the archives of this list didn't
>seem to turn anything up useful to me (maybe I used the wrong words),
>and if Google is my friend, I haven't learnt the language yet...
*******
I have to agree with you. The archives of the CD are zipped - this reduces
the size of the files, but makes them almost impossible to search. Google
will not find anything in the archives. The only way for you to do it is to
copy all the archive files to a folder in your computer and unzip them. You
will then be able to make a search.
A nice thing would be if the archives were indexed. However, this would be
a lot of work.
Claude
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End of Cider Digest #1201
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