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Cider Digest #1186
Subject: Cider Digest #1186, 14 December 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1186 14 December 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1185, 10 December 2004 ("John C. Campbell III")
Re: Cider Digest #1185, 10 December 2004 ("T. J. Higgins ")
Re: Cider Digest #1185, 10 December 2004 (Bill Rhyne)
Cider Flavour and Aroma (Andrew Lea)
Using UV to characterise cider flavour (Andrew Lea)
that Wood quote on trying cider (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1185, 10 December 2004
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 11:16:14 -0500
cider-request@talisman.com wrote:
> Subject: Virginia Cider?
> From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 22:00:55 -0800
>
> We are going to be in Northern Virginia over Christmas week and would like
> to try some of the local ciders and perhaps meet some of the commercial
> producers, any ideas on where we should go, who we should meet?
if you want to sample some of the very best raw cider I've had in years, you
should contact one of the Shelton's at Vintage Virginia Apples, (Charlotte, or
Bud, or their baby brother Chuck) who I think does most of their hard cider
experimentation. (We've got about 4 gallons of his product fermenting by our
processes now to see how it turns out) . There's phone contacts on the webpage
(below) As soon as Charlotte manages to get the data back to us on the cider
tasting we had at the 4th annual cider forum down there last month ... I'll
write a report on it for the Digest. It was a small attendence 20 or so folks)
but hopefully with some advance warning next year we'll see a larger crowd.
Charlotte came up with some good speakers this year between her two
'activities', Tom Burford, Michael Phillips (Lost Nation) Gabriele Rausse
(Monticello), (a great presentation!) . I'm hoping to convince her to get Chas
McGonegal to come down to speak as well next year.
http://www.vintagevirginiaapples.com/cidermaking.htm
jccampb
> On a second note, here is an article on the North American Cider
> Competition. I would hope that it will encourage some of the more reticent
> craft cider producers to participate in the future.
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nwgardens/202874_goodtoeat09.html
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1185, 10 December 2004
From: "T. J. Higgins " <tjhiggin@hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:48:29 -0600
In Digest #1185, Bill Rhyne wrote about "yeasts breaking wind."
In 1839, German chemists Friedrich Woehler and Justus von Liebig
wrote:
"Beer yeast, when dispersed in water, breaks down into an infinite
number of small spheres. If these spheres are transferred to an
aqueous solution of sugar they develop into small animals. They are
endowed with a sort of suction trunk with which they gulp up the
sugar from the solution. Digestion is immediately and clearly
recognizable because of the discharge of excrements. These animals
evacuate ethyl alcohol from their bowels and carbon dioxide from
their urinary organs. Thus one can observe how a specifically
lighter fluid is exuded from the anus and rises vertically whereas
a stream of carbon dioxide is ejected at very short intervals from
their enormously large genitals."
Funny stuff.
T.J. Higgins
Huntsville, AL
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1185, 10 December 2004
From: Bill Rhyne <bill_rhyne@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 11:24:48 -0800 (PST)
RE: Interstate shipping
I called my friend who is involved with the Coalition
for Free Trade. He was at the Supreme Court hearing
the other day. He found it very "awe inspiring". He
commented that the questions asked were very good. At
any rate their website is
http://www.coalitionforfreetrade.org. They are taking
donations which are used for the lawsuits. One of the
lawyers that they hired is Ken Starr.
Bill Rhyne
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Flavour and Aroma
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:19:19 +0000
There seems to be an impression in some parts of the Digest that nothing
is known about cider flavour and aroma. This really isn't true. Loads
has been published on the topic in the Food Science literature from the
mid 1970's onwards. We know all about the acids, tannins, sugars etc.
We also know plenty about the aroma composition by GC-MS. I'll even be
presenting a short poster on GC-odour port of ciders at a forthcoming
French conference in March (http://www.rennes.inra.fr/ap2005/ ) . Lots
of work has also been done on sensory profiling of ciders. It used to be
mostly British work - now it's largely French and Spanish. Trouble is,
you won't find most of this data under one roof [though my book chapter
in Fermented Beverage Production (abridgement on my website) is a
starting point for references] and unless you're in the Food Science
game you'll find it difficult to get hold of.
The one thing that can't easily be done is to relate the chemical
analysis and the sensory perception directly. That is, you can't easily
say that Fred's cider is distinguished from Joe's simply by looking at
the chemistry. There may in some cases be overriding discriminating
features but in most cases there won't be. It's more likely a rather
subtle balance which you'd not easily pick up just by looking at the
data. There may be up to 400 individual flavour /aroma chemicals in
cider so it's no wonder it's not an easy job. But just the same goes for
wine too. Which is why, at the end of the day, tasting is the final
arbiter rather than chemistry.
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Using UV to characterise cider flavour
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:30:29 +0000
Tracey Camp wrote
> did recently pick up a used working order DU-52 UV/Vis Spectrophotometer
> and have been attempting to keep records of trans/abs. across the range of
> my instrument as my fall juice has been fermenting.
>
> My hope is to eventually be able to correlate flavors with peaks in my
> spectrums, and thus gain some predictive control when I select apples
> before pressing.
>
Unfortunately this won't work for flavour / aroma in general because the
flavour volatiles have very weak UV chromophores and are present at such
low amounts (single parts per million or less). They are quite swamped
by other components such as organic acids and phenolics which are
present in fractions of a percent (thousands of ppm). You can just
about use a spectrophotometer to give you a rough idea of 'tannin' level
by monitoring at 280 and 320 nm but even this is pretty iffy.
> I suspect my
> project is flawed due to the multitude of flavor compounds and the
> dillutions at which they are present.
Sorry but you are absolutely right!
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: that Wood quote on trying cider
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:52:23 -0700 (MST)
Thanks to Charles McGonegal for locating the quote I mentioned in CD 1185,
from Steve Wood of Farnum Hill Ciders:
"We practically have to kneel on people's chests and pry open their
mouths to get them to drink this stuff. And then they generally like
it."
It was an a NY Times article from Nov 13, 2003. The entire text of the
article can be found (at least for now) at
http://www.azcentral.com/home/wine/articles/1113cider13.html
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1186
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