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Cider Digest #1182
Subject: Cider Digest #1182, 3 December 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1182 3 December 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
RE: CD 1181 - Taste Expectations ("James Luedtke")
RE: cider flavor wheel and related graphs ("McGonegal, Charles")
RE: Taste Expectations ("McGonegal, Charles")
Cider Flavour Wheel (Andrew Lea)
Cider vs juice aroma (Andrew Lea)
Upper Mississippi Mash-Out Cider Competition - Jan. 29, 05 ("aboyce@mn.rr....)
Taste Expectations ("John Howard")
glucose, finishing formula ("Diane Gagnon")
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Subject: RE: CD 1181 - Taste Expectations
From: "James Luedtke" <james.luedtke@cgi.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:18:41 -0600
Regarding taste expectations, my experience falls largely along with Dick
Dunn, that is, dry ciders don't taste or smell anything like apples.
However, my 2002 cider, consisting of 40% Dolgo crabs, has a definite, if
faint, taste of Dolgos. It seems quite dry (& sharp) to me, typically my
ciders ferment to 1.000 SG. Also, at least one other aficionado agreed that
the Dolgo flavor came through.
Not trying to disprove anyone's point here, just saying that rules of thumb
aren't spot on in every case!
------------------------------
Subject: RE: cider flavor wheel and related graphs
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:31:52 -0600
Gary Burris asks about a cider flavor wheel in CD #1181.
Gary, this is a case of 'me too.'
I've made my own adaptation of Doc Noble's white wine flavor wheel for
_fresh_ apples. A cider flavor wheel would be handy. My bet is that it
wouldn't be very different from the wine flavor wheel - but more
knowledgeable people than I would have to do the tweak.
For that matter, a spider chart of major cider qualities (positive and
negative) might be a handy tool for cider judges to discuss.
Drew Z. - I'll toss this out in public for the NWCS to consider.
One of the lofty goals of nearly all wine competitions is a desire to give
objective feedback to the entrants. And pretty much all competitions fail
miserably in this goal. Style sheet based on the American Wine Society
judging sheet look like they have potential up front, but judges rarely fill
in more than a 1-5 in various categories and might only give a written
comment on one.
So here's an idea.
If you look in various winemaking rags, it isn't long before you find
'spider' graphs used to compare something or other. The basic idea is that
you have a radial diagram - like spokes on a wheel. Each spoke represents a
variable, usually a narrow flavor perception. You can have as many spokes
as you like, but most seem to be 8-12. The center of the graph is 'little'
and the end of each spoke is 'lots'. You put a dot on each spoke to record
a value for that variable. It can be quantitative, or qualitative (as long
as it is essentially a 'little to lots' scalar term.) If you connect the
dots, you get a funny shaped, more or less lumpy circle.
A good flavor wheel would have all (or most) of the 'spokes' you would want
to consider. Go around the flavor wheel and mark a dot from center to edge
in each wedge.
Consider the use in judging. Some consensus, average shape would represent
each style- presumably all different. A report that showed the category
standard and the judges' record of your entry would show you what they were
judging to, how close you came, and how varied the judges were. A
competition wide report would easily show the range on entries, and maybe
what distinguished medal winners from the rest.
It would require (aside from the will) some consensus on a good, usable
'cider wheel' and maybe standards of reference (as practical as possible) to
calibrate what 1-5 means taste-wise for each variable.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Taste Expectations
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:51:43 -0600
Okay Dick, I'll grant that taste is subjective enough that we should all go
around repeating the mantra 'Taste Is Subjective' under our breath.
I certainly see the whole range of folks in my tasting room - even just
considering my brut champagne-method cider. All the way from 'That's
apple???' to 'That's Apple!!!'.
For that matter, my own perceptions seem to cycle over time. I have a dead
dry (but not tannic) Gravenstein / Jerseymac cider that also got a complete
malo-lactic fermentation. I know that MLF is supposed to totally consume
fruity character - but it still tastes 'pineapple' up front to me. And some
days even the summery apple tastes come through.
As I noted, I'm going to _maintain_ that cider tastes like it's origin.
Whether it's 'T'rue depends on what you mean by 'like', I suppose. But
regardless, I think that the assertion, especially made to folks not tasting
the connection, is a challenge. A call to thoughtful regard of flavor and
expectation. And that's part of the fun of tasting.
And now I'm thirsty. If only I had some cider handy...
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Flavour Wheel
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 21:35:30 +0000
Garry Burris wrote:
> I've read that a flavor wheel exists for cider, but have not been able to
> find a copy of it. Google turns up nothing. Any ideas?
I have no wheel but there is a linear tabulation of Cider Flavour
Descriptors on my website (go to the link under More Science).
If you join up the ends you'll have a wheel!
Andrew Lea
(nr Oxford, UK)
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Cider vs juice aroma
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 21:48:34 +0000
Dick wrote:
> I'll go along with Charles's idea that he does get the character of fresh
> apples in cider, if he'll go along with the idea that I generally don't--
> and I think I'm not terribly atypical in that respect.
I'm with Dick on this one. Cider does not smell of fresh apples to me
either. The only thing I'll add (with my Flavour Chemist hat on) is
that all the volatile aroma components in apple juice or fresh apple are
also present in cider (let's say there's a hundred of them or so and the
ones in the cider are actually newly made by the yeast), But the
quantitative *balance* between each of them is quite different in the
two drinks so, to most people, juice and cider are not reminiscent of
each other. But since flavour perception probably differs for every
individual on the planet, I'll understand that some people eg Charles
may be more sensitive to certain aromas in the cider which are also
characteristic of juice. Hence in Charles' brain there is provoked a
memory of juice, but in my brain and Dick's there isn't.
I think we can rationalise it and still keep everybody happy!
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Upper Mississippi Mash-Out Cider Competition - Jan. 29, 05
From: "aboyce@mn.rr.com" <aboyce@mn.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:06:09 -0500
Calling all amateur Cider Makers!
The Upper Mississippi Mash-Out Beer, Mead and Cider competition
is moving to January.
We will be judging all BJCP categories of Cider (2004 Guidelines), and
we will have a SEPARATE Best-of-Show for Cider/Mead and Beer!
When: Jan. 27-29, 2005
Judging: Holiday Inn Metrodome, Mpls, MN
Awards: Summit Brewing, St. Paul, MN
Entries: Accepted Jan 8-21, 2005
We are looking for good judges and stewards for the competition also.
See our website at http://www.mnbrewers.com/mashout for more information.
Sponsored by: The Minnesota Home Brewers Association and the
St. Paul Homebrew Club
------------------------------
Subject: Taste Expectations
From: "John Howard" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 13:24:07 -0500
We are deep into subjective territory here, but I agree with Dick, ciders do
not taste like apples any more than wines taste like grapes, with the
possible exception of tannins. I think there is even some chemical truth to
this statement in the technical fermented product literature. But, that
said, there is sometimes a resemblance. Clearly this can help a novice
relate to cider in a way that might lead them to become a consumer. In my
experience, this fruit taste resemblance is often enhanced when there is a
nose of apple, a bit of sugar present, and higher acid content.
John Howard
Philadelphia PA USA
------------------------------
Subject: glucose, finishing formula
From: "Diane Gagnon" <gagnond@endirect.qc.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 09:40:11 -0500
Has anyone used the "sweetener" from Winemaster named : "glucose
finishing formula".The recipe calls for 1.5 to 2 oz per recipe. I was
told that it would ferment to 50% leaving the rest as sugar. As I am
looking for having a cider with residual sugar in the bootle
fermentation, I wounder if it can be used instead of sugar in the second
(bottle ) fermentation ? The product is normally used for making home
spirituous or liqueur
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1182
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