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Cider Digest #1209
Subject: Cider Digest #1209, 20 March 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1209 20 March 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Narrow-Range pH Paper (Scott Smith)
Re: Basic Cider Recipe (Benjamin Watson)
Re: Basic Cider Recipe (Tim Bray)
Dip-Strip test for tannin ("Drew Zimmerman")
milling apples ("Betsy Brown")
Re: Basic Cider Recipe (Dick Dunn)
Re: Narrow Range pH Test Strips ("Gary Awdey")
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Subject: Re: Narrow-Range pH Paper
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:45:15 -0500
I have to say that like Gary I had difficulty reading the results on
the narrow-range pH paper, and so I bought a pH meter and have not gone
back to the paper.
Scott
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Basic Cider Recipe
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:29:34 -0500
Steve asks about New England-style cider. I've made this only once
before -- in fact, before I started keeping records -- but I used Paul
Correnty's recipe, and it turned out well.
As to the specific questions:
> Long time mead maker, delving into making cider, I want to make a good
> basic hard sparkling cider -- As a point of reference, I've purchased
> 'The Art of Cidermaking' by Paul Correnty:
> 1) Paul has a recipe for a new england cider that calls for powdered
> tannin -- is this necessary?
No, not essential -- I followed the recipe and used it. But tannin
powder (from grapes) is added only to lend more 'body' or 'structure'
to a cider Paul presumed would be made by most people from regular old
North American dessert apples, which with few exceptions tend not to
have much tannin. But raisins, which you typically add to make N.E.
cider, have some grape tannins too, so I'm not sure I would bother with
the powder unless you're omitting the raisins. Other interesting
natural options (in season): elderberries or mountain ash berries
(sorbs), which also contain plenty of tannins.
> 2) What do you prefer for yeast? I have Lalvin EC-1118 and K1-V1116 in
> my refrigerator, but would purchase another if it would be better? (I
> like my meads on the dry side)
Since I don't have my notes, I don't have a record of which yeast
strain I used, but I suspect it was Pasteur Champagne back then, which
ferments to dryness. The final alcohol of a New England style cider
might be around 8% or so, and a wide variety of wine and champagne
yeasts would work. I don't have a lot of experience with mead yeasts,
and I don't know how far a sweet mead yeast would go before it got
attenuated. I suspect, though, that it would mostly ferment out a N.E.
style cider, leaving perhaps a bit of residual sweetness but not too
much. It's worth an experimental gallon batch this year! Or, you could
forget about using cultured yeasts altogether and rely on wild yeasts
to get things started (which die out at low alcohol levels), and then
hope for some Saccharomyces yeasts that are on the raisins to kick in.
I haven't tried this, but theoretically it should work fine.
> 3) What should I shoot for a SG? Paul was a little vague on that point
> somewhere around 1.060?
Absolutely unimportant, in my opinion, because you are adding sugar in
any case (granulated cane sugar and raisins in the N.,E. style), so you
can simply add more if your specific gravity in the juice is lower (my
fresh-pressed juice typically tests out between 1.046 and 1.050 S.G. --
or 5.5% to 6% potential alcohol). You'll want to follow Paul's
calculations (or the ones in my book) to determine how much sugar
you'll need to add. Raisins are a wild card; there's probably no way of
knowing how much sugar they add to the equation, but I wouldn't worry
about it -- you are using them to contribute sugar and tannins and
create a certain "profile". So I'd calculate based on raising the S.G.
with cane sugar, and then add the quantity of raisins specified.
Ben Watson
Francestown NH
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Basic Cider Recipe
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:33:18 -0800
Steve,
1) Adding tannin is not strictly necessary. It may (or may not) improve
the finished product, depending on what your juice has in it to begin
with. Tannins improve hard cider, up to a point, and most apple juice is
tannin-deficient, so adding a little tannin usually helps. But if you
start with tannic juice (from cider apples), adding grape tannin might be bad.
>2) What do you prefer for yeast? I have Lalvin EC-1118 and K1-V1116 in
>my refrigerator, but would purchase another if it would be better? (I
>like my meads on the dry side)
Obviously... ;-) So far my favorite commercial yeast for cider is the
Wyeast Cider yeast. Crisp and dry but retaining some apple character. One
unusual characteristic is it left the finished cider super-saturated with
CO2, which made bottling a bit of an adventure, but resulted in a very nice
lightly sparkling product without bottle fermenting.
I've never had good results from Cote des Blancs (Epernay II), but others
swear by it.
Realize that your cider will come out dry no matter what yeast you use -
all the sugars in cider are fermentable, and the alcohol content is not
(usually) high enough to inhibit even a weak ale yeast.
>3) What should I shoot for a SG? Paul was a little vague on that point
>somewhere around 1.060?
Anywhere above 1.045 will work; aim for 6 to 7% ABV. If you get an
especially rich juice you can go higher - my juice last fall came in around
1.070, which will give me a cider above 8%. You can always add honey if
you think it is too weak after fermentation. I did that with a batch from
last year that was too bitter (not sure if it was tannins, wild yeast, or
both) and it came out terrific.
Cheers,
Tim
=====================================
Listen to Oak & Thorn, two hours of Celtic music
Sundays 9-11 AM Pacific time
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------------------------------
Subject: Dip-Strip test for tannin
From: "Drew Zimmerman" <drewzimmer@comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:50:53 -0800
Tannin dip test for cider, procedure as follows: 1. Immerse tongue in
cider and coat liberally. Agitation and sloshing a bit is recommended.
2. Remove tongue and check for feeling of "fuzziness". Little or no
fuzzy feeling indicates little or no tannin. The fuzzier it gets, the
more tannin there is. NB This dip test may be repeated as necessary
until the fuzzness becomes clear, however, excessive testing can lead to
fuzzy thinking.
Drew Zimmerman
Red Barn Cider
Mt. Vernon, WA
------------------------------
Subject: milling apples
From: "Betsy Brown" <bbrown@saber.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 21:53:19 -0700
Does anyone have suggestions on milling apples for cider? We have been
using a garbage disposal and would like to upgrade. We use a pack press for
pressing. We will be sharing the mill/grinder and are looking at processing
1 to 2 tons of apples. Thanks for your help.
Betsy Brown
bbrown@saber.net
Covelo, California
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Basic Cider Recipe
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:41:05 -0700
In Cider Digest 1208, Steve Thompson <srthompson@gmail.com> wrote:
...
> 1) Paul has a recipe for a new england cider that calls for powdered
> tannin -- is this necessary?
Depends on your taste and your source of juice. If you're starting now,
presumably you're starting from relatively-mainstream commercial juice
(since it's not exactly harvest time in the N hemisphere anyway). A bit
of tannin will add body and help mouthfeel.
HOWEVER, if you do use the brew-shop powdered tannin, go VERY light on
it in your first batch, because the type you're likely to find has a
not-pleasant taste of its own. You want just a touch to pick up some
bitterness, but not enough to get the flavor of it.
Correnty's recipe, at least in the edition I have, calls for a tablespoon
of powdered tannin in 15 gallons == a teaspoon in five gallons. To my
taste, that's an overwhelming amount. It's not the bitterness; I like
ciders that are substantially more bitter than that amount of tannin powder
produces. Rather, it's the oddball added taste that jumps out. I'd use
no more than 1/4 tsp / 5 gallons myself based on past ciders I've made.
Best thing to do is get some of the powdered tannin and play around with
it. You're a meadmaker, so try some added to a mead. (Mix in water and
dilute to get down to a bottle-size amount.) Try it in a traditional mead
if you've got one to hand. That will give you a fair idea of what it adds
to the taste. Or you can experiment with it in a dry white wine to get
the idea. (A Sauvignon Blanc would be a good base.) What I'm getting at
is: tastes vary a lot on the effect of tannin powder, so try it out before
you commit a whole batch to it.
> 2) What do you prefer for yeast? I have Lalvin EC-1118 and K1-V1116 in
> my refrigerator, but would purchase another if it would be better? (I
> like my meads on the dry side)
Almost any commercial yeast you use is going to ferment the cider
completely dry. It's a matter of what tastes you get out of the yeast,
so probably for a first try you'd want one that (in your experience)
gives a relatively neutral character on its own. As you probably know
already, 1116 will ferment every last molecule of sugar within ten feet
of a carboy; it's no less thorough in cider.
There are commercial cultures intended specifically for cider. Both White
Labs and Wyeast have them. I've used the White Labs with good results.
(It can produce a sulfurous character during fermentation, but that does
dissipate. Have faith.) Both are liquid cultures, so a little bit more
spendy.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Narrow Range pH Test Strips
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:34:46 -0500
A follow-up on the narrow range pH strips mentioned in Cider Digest #1208:
Yesterday I pressed a small quantity of a wonderfully durable Soulard
crabapple (a hybrid of M. pumila, a.k.a. the Paradise Apple native to Middle
and Southeastern Europe, with M. ioensis, a crab native to the prairie of
North America). Photos and other information related to this apple are
found at http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/acchtml.pl?1016341. It
made a tasty, tangy juice of SG 1.04 (in a wet year) after 5 months of
occasionally sub-freezing ambient storage (not controlled-atmosphere
storage). The juice was oxidized to a dark color. This helped me realize a
possible cause for some inconsistent results with the pH test strips
(sometimes dead on but not always). The ones I've used ("'Precision' pH
Control Paper No. 2844") indicate in colors ranging from light olive to
blue, with darker shades of olive in the middle of the range. Juice that
is oxidized to a dark color may bias the appearance of the test stip so you
would read a higher pH, especially if the juice is unfiltered. Dipping just
a plain strip of white paper into the sample showed that it picked up quite
a bit of brown color from the sample. Although dabbing this lightly with a
tissue removed the brown color, doing the same to a test strip seemed to
remove much of the indicating chemical. I'm not sure what effect this would
have on accuracy of indication.
Armed with more buffer solution to put my pH meter into working condition I
compared the test strip to the meter and found that the most closely
matching color corresponded to a pH of 3.6. By meter the same sample showed
a pH of 3.2. While this may not sound like a huge difference, if you look
at the sulfite addition chart in Andrew Lea's website (scroll to the bottom
of http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/pHandacid.htm) then
you will see that this error leads to the difference between the
recommendation of no addition and a recommended 100ppm dose for a partial
kill (what you'd use to inhibit bacteria, molds and undesirable wild yeasts
if planning to use only wild yeasts present in the fruit).
This is a significant difference that is causing me to rethink how useful
these particular test strips are. Maybe there's a better pH test strip
available somewhere that is better suited for dark apple juice. If not, and
if you plan to use wild yeast in your fermentation without the risk of
oversulfiting then you should be aware of this potental for error and might
want to invest in a pH meter.
Gary Awdey
Eden, NY
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End of Cider Digest #1209
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