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Cider Digest #1237
Subject: Cider Digest #1237, 3 July 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1237 3 July 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Subject: Re: Keeving Timeframe (Michael Arighi)
Loooong ferments (Tim Bray)
Issues re Keeving (Andrew Lea)
Tannin colour and water (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: Subject: Re: Keeving Timeframe
From: Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:56:57 -0700
On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 11:12 -0600, The Grant Family
<grants@netspace.net.au> wrote about the "Keeving Timeframe"
I noticed one question in Andrew Lea's comments that I didn't see an
answer to, which may have a bearing, too, and which may be important for
your next batch. Did the commercial presser of the Sturmer juice use
pectinase? If they did, then your result with the alcohol test would be
as you reported it, but would say nothing about the pectin content of
the actual apples, only that it had been destroyed by the pectinase.
I ask that since I almost always have used it in the past, as it
dramatically improves the ease of my pressing and, particularly, juice
yields. I wouldn't be surprised if your commercial presser adds it
routinely for the same reasons, if they regularly deal with apples.
If that's what happened, there may still be hope for your second try.
On a side note, thanks for the alcohol test suggestion, Andrew. I wasn't
aware of that, but it explains something that I had happen to me some
years ago which always puzzled me. I'd made some blackberry wine and
"syruped" the fermentation, as I wanted to go for a blackberry port.
When I got it to about the right sugar balance (about a year from making
it), I hit it with 190 proof alcohol to get it up to ~19% abv. Instant
berry jelly!
I left it alone (jelled in a carboy, with a lock), trying to decide what
to do with it. It held that way for about 3-4 years, if I remember, then
suddenly "broke." I was able to bottle it, and it was extremely good.
But I'd always wondered about the "jelly." Now I know. Could have used
pectinase, just didn't understand the chemistry (my brother, who is a
physical, not an organic, chemist, once responded to my question about
how pectin works with one word: "magic").
- --
Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
------------------------------
Subject: Loooong ferments
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:31:39 -0700
If long, slow ferments make good cider, I must be making some excellent
stuff. Of the 7 carboys filled last December, one was bottled in May, two
finished just a week or two ago, and the rest are still perking! Two of
them are almost done, at SG 1.005 or so, and I will probably bottle them in
the next few days. But one is at SG 1.014, and one is at 1.02 - and that
was the first batch pressed, back in November!
The one at 1.014 tastes really good, an excellent balance of sugar, acid,
and tannin, so I racked it again and put it into the fridge, hoping to stun
the remaining yeast. I'm planning to put it up in champagne bottles, keep
it in the fridge, and cross my fingers. It's a blend of King David and
Muscat deBernay, fermented with Lalvin D47 (I think - notes aren't clear).
The slow ferments are a little surprising, as I pitched wine yeast in some
of them (71B and D47) and the temperatures haven't really been cold,
averaging around 58 - 60 F most of the winter.
In other news, I am finishing off the last few bottles from the 2003
vintage, which was not very good when bottled (WAY too much FYN and
slightly sour, like a Gueuze) but has continued to improve in the
bottle. Usually I see a big jump in quality after about 6 months in
bottle, but this stuff just slowly got better, and seems to still be
improving after more than a year.
Anyone else had ciders take this long to ferment?
Tim
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Issues re Keeving
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 16:29:53 +0100
Stuart Grant wrote:
> Unfortunately I'm still not seeing any signs of keeving. Andrew
> suggested two possibilities for this: i) I added the SO2, the CaCl2
> and the PME at roughly the same time (although each was dissolved in
> separate portions of juice and added separately) which may have
> inactivated the PME. Can anyone explain how this occurs?
I think there would only be a problem of inactivation if everything was
mixed together before adding. It's just a matter of concentration. If
each addition is made quite separately and well mixed in to the bulk
before the next one, there shouldn't be a problem. It's always worth
adding the SO2 twelve hours before anything else though. The reason for
this is that 'neat' SO2 does most of its work in the first few hours and
a good majority of it is oxidised and/ or bound after a day or so.
Since it *may* inhibit the PME, it's worth keeping those additions
temporally separated.
> Also, ii) I may not have sufficient pectin in thejuice for a keeve. I
> now know this because I performed Andrew's alcohol-pectin test and
> got a negative. So I don't think this batch will ever keeve....I'm
> convinced that even with low pectin apples, maceration should
> provide enough for keeving.
I believe lack of soluble pectin is the most probable cause and I hope
you are right that you can get more to diffuse out by maceration. Some
data I obtained on US juicing apples many years ago indicated a range of
about 30:1 in pectin content across cultivars (from 70 ppm up to 2500
ppm). There was also a marked seasonal effect (i.e. fruit stored or
not) even within the same cultivar (Cortland rose from about 70 ppm when
fresh picked up to 700 ppm on storage). This was just with normally
pressed juice, of course. Maceration of milled fruit *may* have the same
effect as slow release of cell wall pectin on prolonged storage.
It may also be possible to add the PME straight to the mash and to
macerate in the presence of PME overnight to assist in the process,
which may help to solubilise pectin. That would certainly be worth a
controlled trial!
Good Luck!
Andrew
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Tannin colour and water
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 16:50:45 +0100
Charles McGonegal wrote:
> Speaking of tannins, and specifically - how many tannins - I've noticed
> that the water at my place, loaded with minerals as it is, turns purple
> when it comes in contact with low levels of certain tannins. Rinsing
> out a merely juice-damp plastic pail turns the rinse water dark purple.
> Now, to quantitate the effect!
Wow! I'd like to know the iron levels at your place! And what's the
pH? Do you drink the stuff??
Seriously, though, ferric iron (but not ferrous) reacts quite nicely
with apple 'tannins' to give purple - black colours. That is a kind of
a crude way of distinguishing apple 'tannins' from oak 'tannins' because
the gallic acid in the latter also reacts with ferrous iron. This was
first recorded by Thomas Andrew Knight in the late 1790's. So you are in
good company!
Andrew
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1237
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