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Cider Digest #1184
Subject: Cider Digest #1184, 8 December 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1184 8 December 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
RE: Has anybody attempted to analytically characterise flavor? ("McGonegal...)
RE: Has anybody attempted to analytically characterise flavor? ("David Bol...)
Cider apple growing areas in Tennessee (Christopher Snow)
US Supreme Court case on interstate winery shipments (Dick Dunn)
cider perception and taste (patton@rockisland.com)
An Apple Orchard in a Glass (Peter G)
Natural hard cider ("David Houseman")
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Subject: RE: Has anybody attempted to analytically characterise flavor?
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:23:44 -0600
Tracy,
I developed an HPLC method using a differential refractometer and a UV
spectrophotometer. I kept the spec at a particular wavelength (208nm, I
think), rather than scanning a spectrum. The setup was very good at
identifying acids (acetic to citric), sugars (glucose, fructose) and
alcohols (methanol to butanediol). And a few strays, like glycerol and
acetaldehyde.
But that's very basic characterization - at least for sensory. It doesn't
cover the terpenes, esters and ethers that occur at really low levels. To
get a good correlation with human senses, I think you'd need one of the new
'electronic noses' that use digital images of chemiluminescence arrays. And
a _really_ big database of reference samples.
Chas.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Has anybody attempted to analytically characterise flavor?
From: "David Bolliet" <davidbolliet@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 12:53:14 -0500
Tracy mentioned a gas chromatograph (GC), and that would be one way to get
started analyzing the flavor of cider (for those who don't know: simply put,
gas chromatography separates a mixture, e.g. cider, into its individual
components. Among other things, individual components need to be "volatile").
Then, one would have to couple the GC with an olfactory detector of some
sort. This set-up does exist, and is dubbed GC-O (O stands for
Olfactometry). In a nutshell here's how this works: the GC separates the
individual components, then these are detected by the instrument
detector(regardless of whetehr they have an aroma or not) and by the O
detector which happens to be the person running the GC. The goal is to match
(and later on identify) an aroma with a peak.
It's a little more technical than this, but this summarizes the GC-O
technique quite well.
------------------------------
Subject: Cider apple growing areas in Tennessee
From: Christopher Snow <cdsnow@integrityis.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:40:17 -0800
Hello,
I'm new to the Digest and to cider making as well. Am
looking to move to eastern Tennessee soon and wonder if there
are any areas in particular that have the climate and growing
conditions conducive to cider apples. Any suggestions are
certainly welcome!
Thank you for taking the time to tend the Digest,
C.Snow
------------------------------
Subject: US Supreme Court case on interstate winery shipments
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:15:53 -0700 (MST)
A case has just begun that's interesting to US cidermakers and cider
drinkers. The simple explanation is that it challenges state laws which
restrict direct shipments from out-of-state wineries to consumers in
a state. The importance to cider in the US is that most cidermakers have
small production volumes and are therefore unable to get interstate
distribution (because they are too small to interest a distributor).
This means that we cider drinkers are constantly hearing about wonderful
ciders...that we can't get other than by traveling all over the country!
The conflict - the reason this got to the Supreme Court - is between the
21st Amendment to the Constitution (repeal of Prohibition), which gave
states the right to regulate alcohol, versus Article I Sec 9 provisions
which prohibit inter-state tariffs, duties, other obstacles to free trade.
(I'm giving a loose interpretation here; I'm obviously NOT a Constitutional
scholar!)
The plaintiffs are saying that the 21st Amendment must be interpreted in
context of I.9 rules for free inter-state commerce. The defendants are
saying that the 21st Amendment overrides the provisions of I.9 in the case
of alcoholic beverages.
There are various interested parties. Attorneys-general of several states
come down on the side of maintaining existing regulations--because they
don't want to lose control, because they've wanted to maintain what is
obviously "protectionist" laws for their own states' wineries, etc.
Distributors similarly don't want to lose business--they generally have
what amounts to a legalized monopoly on delivering out-of-state wines
into their areas.
The case for change (getting rid of state regulations against out-of-state
shippments) is that the current situation is taking away freedoms from
consumers, and that it is also demonstrably hurting small producers (i.e.,
it really is a restraint of trade).
One of the defenses of the current laws is that they help prevent selling
alcohol to minors. Pardon my cynicism if you will (and I think it's obvious
where my sympathies lie), but it's an American tradition that when
politicians/lawmakers want to maintain an illogically controlling position,
they'll try to excuse it by claiming "it's for the children". It's fairly
clear that if a kid wants to get drunk, he's not going to run through a
bunch of ordering nonsense and wait a few days, nor buy anything high-
class. Fortunately there are also studies based on states which currently
- -do- allow inter-state shipments, showing that there isn't any significant
problem of shipping to minors. Also, shippers (UPS, FedEx, etc.) already
have "adult signature required" mechanisms in place.
The people arguing for change also point out that the existing regulations
can't be protecting children, preventing dangerous or unsavory practices,
etc., because the regulations generally allow in-state shipments without
restrictions. I.e., the ability of a NY resident to order wine from CO
doesn't introduce any significant new risk since the NY resident can
already order NY wine.
It will be an interesting case to watch, since there's a lot of $$ and
political power aimed at maintaining status quo. The case began Tuesday
(7 Dec 04) but a decision is not expected out until some time in the
spring. I wish I had a case name or docket ID to track it, but I was
not able to find one in today's online material.
Oh, and I suppose I need to say that the opinions above are -personal-
statements. The Cider Digest doesn't have opinions.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: cider perception and taste
From: patton@rockisland.com
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:44:59 -0800 (PST)
I've really enjoyed the discussion of cider flavor and perception and will
take the opportunity to throw a few thoughts into the mix. I'm not a
commercial cider maker--although i've made some at home--but have found
that virtually all people I've served cider to (my own or commercial)
react negatively at first. But I don?t think it?s because most people who
regularly consume fermented beverages expect beer to taste like malt, wine
like grapes or cider like apples
Having done way too many beer tastings (as a brewer) and wine
tastings (as a restaurant owner), there are very different initial
reactions of most people to beers, wines and ciders. If I got the
squints and grimaces I get from cider drinkers when I served someone
a beer, I?d be headed back to the brewery to find the problem. Wine
sits between the two with initial reaction depending upon tannins,
acidity, and varietal character. Back to that later.
The interesting thing is if you tell a cider drinker to take a sip, then
take a bite of food, then sip again, you?ll usually have a convert. In
contrast, people tend to slow down on beer drinking after the first sip.
If you have ever cleaned up after a beer tasting you probably have had to
deal with hundreds of half empty glasses. Wines generally are a bit
better from a clean up perspective. I have learned when I?m going to
serve cider at a meal to buy a bottle more than I think I need as some
people will, after the first sip, start really consuming. Cider is a slow
starter but definitely comes on in the end.
A few thoughts why this happens. Beer has enough residual sugars and
densities to make an initial pleasing taste profile. What the soda pop
cider producers do is to elevate sugar levels to at or above those of a
typical beer, making the initial sip pleasant but making the rest of the
bottle insipid. The interactions between aroma, taste and the thousands
of compounds in fermented beverages are topics that will keep
microbiologists and chemists in business for eternity. So what makes
cider different from wine? Even with similar acidities and sugars, people
initially still react negatively to ciders. Why? Alcohol content,
glycerol levels or whatever of a thousand other aroma, sensory and flavor
producing compounds?
There is a whole lot of literature available in the wine world on
preserving fruit character. Having worked two wineries at harvest this
year, I got an earful of theory on how to preserve fruit flavors. I?m
sure some is applicable to cider. As Richard and Susan Anderson said, the
aroma and taste of cider don?t always match. With some creativity, study,
and innovation, I?m sure all of us cider makers, home or commercial, can
make a step forward.
Jim Patton
------------------------------
Subject: An Apple Orchard in a Glass
From: Peter G <peter.g@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 07:52:04 -0800
at NYTimes.com , Eric Asimov reviews Apple Brandys, complete with multimedia
you might hafta register ... but that's painless & free
An Apple Orchard in a Glass
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/08/dining/08WINE.html
regards
peter g
------------------------------
Subject: Natural hard cider
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:11:53 -0500
I've had numerous commercial hard ciders and made cider several times myself
but never to my satisfaction. This year I'm making a cyser and bought 5
gallons of fresh cider, no preservatives but pasteurized, from a local
orchard in the usual 1 gallon plastic jugs. I used 4 right away. The 5th
has been refrigerated since mid October when I bought it. This weekend I
took this 5th gallon out to use in topping off my cyser and it had begun to
ferment in the plastic gallon jug at 33oF refrigerator temperature. Boy is
this good cider at this stage. Wonder apple nose and flavor but just
probably 2+ % alcohol and light carbonation. This is probably hard cider
the way it was when cider was so popular in this country. No off flavors.
Natural fermentation. Still lots of apple character. Hopefully the cyser
is half as good.....
Dave Houseman
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End of Cider Digest #1184
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