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Cider Digest #1177
Subject: Cider Digest #1177, 11 November 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1177 11 November 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Ciderday 2004 ("mark")
Cider Day in W. Mass ("drcath@tiac.net")
Another lament - taste expectations. ("McGonegal, Charles")
Another lament - taste expectations. (addendum) ("McGonegal, Charles")
Apple tree yield (Andrew Lea)
Re: Lament for cider ("John C. Campbell III")
How many Apples? ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
CIDER APPLE YIELD (Derek Bisset)
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Subject: Ciderday 2004
From: "mark" <mark@thealchemystudio.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:22:38 -0500
Hi Dick et al,
I'll post my take on Ciderday 2004. First, a disclaimer. I am on the event
planning committee, have been for 3-4 years, and I've attended probably at
least the last 6 events, maybe more. This was Ciderday's 10th year.
One of the things readers might not know about the event is that while it
started as mostly a fermenter's (both home and pro or semi-pro) event, it has
grown over the years. It is now 2 days long and offers a lot of non-
fermentation oriented activities like heirloom apple tastings, orchard tours,
pie demos, cooking demos, apple cuisine and the like.
As for the hard cider related activities I think that the Cider Salon (the
tasting Ben mentioned) had the largest crowd to date. Probably around 150 or
so. I was worried we would run out of cider! The crowd certainly inhaled the
huge (about 20 pounds) pile of cheese we put out with bread during the
tasting. People were very interested in trying all the ciders and there was,
of course, spiritied but good natured opinion about the various attributes of
all the ciders.
The event continues to draw people from near and far. I met a man who drove
10 hours from Maine; a couple who flew in from Kansas (they chose to come to
Ciderday INSTEAD of coming earlier for foliage season); people from the NY
metro area (about 2-4 hours away depending) and some CA visitors. I was very
impressed at how passionate and focused some of these vistors were on soaking
up as much cider -- hard and sweet -- and apples and Franklin County ambiance
as they could in the 2 days they had. As a long time resident of this
community it made me feel very proud of the men and women who work so hard to
keep our orchards alive.
The talk by Alan Tringham was very well attended, as was Michael Phillips'
presentation, though I was downstairs setting up for the salon so I did not
see either of them.
I look forward to hearing other reports!
Mark Lattanzi
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Day in W. Mass
From: "drcath@tiac.net" <drcath@tiac.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:48:08 -0500
My first visit to Cider Day in Franklin County started out with a stop at
Orchard Equipment Supply Co. in Conway, MA for some 30x30 inch press
cloths. I enjoyed the journey to the anticipated destination like a kid
waits for Christmas Day. The prize at the end of the trip from Hartford, CT
was made more rewarding by the hospitality and service I received. Mr. Russ
French was just about to close up shop and head home but he made a special
point of completing my transaction even though it was 12:10 pm! Thanks Russ!
Then we were off northbound on Shelburne Falls Rd to Colrain for the
heirloom apple tasting, cider making seminar and tasting, and traditional
English ciders tasting - whew!! My favorite was the local batch made in the
vintage oak whisky barrel from Dixie. All in all I was impressed by the
skill, knowledge, and enthusiasm displayed by the community of New England
cider makers. I'm already looking forward to next year's event.
Dave Catherman
South Glastonbury, CT
drcath@tiac.net
------------------------------
Subject: Another lament - taste expectations.
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:27:20 -0600
For the 10^nth time, I've heard a cidermaker lament that customers have an
unfortunate expectation that cider will taste like apples. I have two
thoughts to toss out for discussion. I don't know if they will help us deal
with this market expectation, or not. But what the heck...
Cidermakers Lament: They don't expect wine to taste like grapes, but cider
to taste like apples.
Conjecture the First: Perhaps this statement is inaccurate in that people
_do_ expect wine to taste like grapes - but don't know what grapes taste
like. After all, when was the last time you went to the grocer and bought
some zinfandel or chardonay grapes to munch on.
Conjecture the Second: Perhaps people don't know what apples taste like.
This is also not far fetched. If most folks get Red and Gold Delicious from
the supermarket in , oh say, May, then they really can't be expected to know
what an orchard fresh apple tastes like. Which means they must be doubly
clueless when it comes to what a fresh sweet/sharp or bittersweet apple
tastes like.
Grand Statement of Opinion: I'm going to start maintaining that cider _does_
indeed taste like apples. I can taste it. I can taste varietal influence.
I can taste terroir and weather in fresh apples - so I expect to taste their
impact in cider - even though I may not be able to predict the exact effect
ahead of time. What cider does _not_ taste like is <large brand>'s apple
juice. But we've all tasted 'real' juice when we're pressing sweet cider.
It doesn't taste like <brand>'s 'apple' juice either. Nor does (most) grape
wine taste like Welch's. The flip side of this argument must be that grape
wines also taste like grapes - if one were privy to wandering through the
vineyard, plucking an occasional sun-warmed grape off the vine. I've read
an awful lot of winemaker interviews in trade journals where folks argue for
picking by taste, rather than by target analytical metrics.
Right off hand, I can see a couple of ways to exploit this table-turning
conjecture. One is to pose a question to tasters. When standing at the
tasting room bar (for those of use with tasting rooms) - or at shows or
cider events, my usual reply to 'It doesn't taste like apples' is to
_assert_ 'wine doesn't taste like grapes'. We could instead pose the
question 'Does wine taste like grapes?' and draw people into thinking about
what they expect. Both parties might learn something.
The other thing would be to present a doesn't-taste-like-apples person with
a sample of apple that a cider _does_ taste like. This wouldn't be feasible
all the time - but could be done certain times of year with a little
planning. 'Here's a slice of <x>, smell the bouquet notes common to it and
the cider, taste the citrusy note that comes through and then the spice.
Feel that tannins in both.' This might be a really good approach for events
like Cider Day - tasting sessions that include the source apples with
specific comments on what aspects of the orchard fruit is preserved in the
cider.
A bit more than two bits worth.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Another lament - taste expectations. (addendum)
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:43:54 -0600
I just realized a third way to use the wine/grape flip.
Wines that _do_ tend to taste overtly like Welch's juice are usually
considered junk, while fine wines preserve the deep and subtle aspects of
the grape. We can all think of commercial products to hold up to tasters as
examples. Therefore, ciders that are overtly juicy (like macro-'beet-cane'
cider) should face the same criteria and be classified accordingly. We wish
to promote (and make!) _fine_ cider.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Apple tree yield
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 22:32:07 +0000
John Campbell wrote:
> I should perhaps pose the question
> instead, to folks like Andrew Lea (who have actually grown
> more than a few trees for the purpose of actually -using- the fruit)
I'm sorry John but I'm still with Dick on this one. Your question is
impossible to answer with any precision since there are too many variables.
For instance, my tiny orchard of 25 cider trees on MM106 on one sixth
acre give about 1 ton of fruit in an 'on' year and only 150 kilos in an
'off' year'. That's a range of 7 fold for a start! The 'best' figure
there for me is 6 tons per acre but many commercial cider growers quote
20 tons per acre for the same cultivars on the same rootstocks (a range
of three fold). They will be feeding their trees much more than I do, my
soil is thin chalk, theirs may be deep loam. Yields of the same
(dessert) cultivars in the South of France are I understand typically
twice what they are in the UK even under professional management -
that's down to climate. In some climates (eg the dry valleys of
Washington State and BC, but not the UK) irrigation is important. So
this will have a major effect too.
How can you expect us to give you any precise figures for your own
environment, especially if it's an area where UK cider apples have not
been grown before.? All you can expect from anybody are the merest
'ball park guidelines'. Sorry to disappoint but this is the real world
out here!
Andrew
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Lament for cider
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:51:43 -0500
Oh my word Dick ... where did you see the books? The old research center?
jccampb
cider-request@talisman.com wrote:
> On a recent vacation, I had the privilege to see several old English books
> on cider...celebrating the apple, noting the particular high quality to
> which the best cider may aspire, and such.
>
> Andrew Lea noted that one common thread through these old books is a lament
> of the failure to appreciate cider's potential, the lost opportunity of
> England's orchards (or perhaps of English, or the world's, appreciation)
> to place the best cider up on a par with the world's best wines. Andrew
> noted similar comments in the seminal books by Worlidge (1691), Knight
> (1797), and Hogg&Bull (1886). I'm sure once we've got enough historical
> perspective to identify seminal cider book(s) of the late 20th century,
> we will be able to add one more century to this sequence of cider's failure
> to be recognized for its full potential!
>
> Shall we call cider the Rodney Dangerfield of fermented beverages?
> - --
> Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
>
------------------------------
Subject: How many Apples?
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 22:39:31 -0800
Dicks Dunns 1 bushel for a dwarf tree is a pretty good rule of the thumb.
But there are lots of variables, like soil quality, water, horticultural
practices etc. For cider apples, biennialism is a big issue. We have about
1150 trees on dwarf stock on 1.5 acres, Class 3 soil and add no nitrogen. In
any given year, 20-30 percent of the trees are off, with little or no fruit.
Look at the UK harvest figures for cider apples, there is quit a swing
between the "on" and "off" years.
We pick about 30 bins annually. Bins vary, some are 44"x48"X24" others are
47"x48"x24". We estimate we our crop at about 25,000 lbs of fruit but do not
weight it. A bin will juice out at 50 to 60 gallons. By commercial standards
this is a poor crop where 35-40 bins an acre is a more likely goal. So it
depends, as a grower you take what you grow and what you can get.
------------------------------
Subject: CIDER APPLE YIELD
From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@shaw.ca>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:38:34 -0800
Directory of Apple Cultivars by Martin Crawford
Agroforestry Research Trust 1994
has a useful reference section on yield as it is affected by rootstocks.
In that section if I look at MM106 , my preferred rootstock for
Yarlington Mill , a moderately vigorous tree, for example I see an
expected yield of 75 - 150 lbs of fruit after 4 years . On M26 the
expected yield is 50 - 100 lbs of fruit and on M9 25-80lbs.
And these are noted as average yields . There could be wide variability
from 0 - 800lbs perhaps around these averages .
My own experience is that I never seem to get the average yield , only
the extremes . This year branches are breaking after a dearth last year .
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1177
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