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Cider Digest #1183
Subject: Cider Digest #1183, 6 December 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1183 6 December 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Has anybody attempted to analytically characterise flavor? (Tracy Camp)
RE: Cider vs. Juice aroma ("McGonegal, Charles")
Taste Expectations ("Drew Zimmerman")
Flavor Wheel & Cider Competition ("Drew Zimmerman")
Keeving, can't follow the instructions (mstokes@umenfa.maine.edu)
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Subject: Has anybody attempted to analytically characterise flavor?
From: Tracy Camp <campt@polyserve.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 08:45:07 -0800 (PST)
I have a college-level background in biochemistry, but don't really have
the resources or the chemistry background to get very specific. However I
did recently pick up a used working order DU-52 UV/Vis Spectrophotometer
and have been attempting to keep records of trans/abs. across the range of
my instrument as my fall juice has been fermenting.
My hope is to eventually be able to correlate flavors with peaks in my
spectrums, and thus gain some predictive control when I select apples
before pressing.
Unfortunately I think I'm not really going to be able to tell anything
because so far the only really strong 'peaks' I've been able to detect
from the noise of the instrument is alchohol (as compared against a really
decent 40 proof grain vodka made by the Bend Distillery). I suspect my
project is flawed due to the multitude of flavor compounds and the
dillutions at which they are present.
Can't really afford to own and maintain a gas chromatograph, but I was
wondering if anybody has ever tried anything similar.
Tracy
OpenMars
Portland OR
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Subject: RE: Cider vs. Juice aroma
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:58:22 -0600
In CD#1182 Andrew writes:
> Hence in Charles' brain there is provoked a memory of juice, but in my
brain and Dick's there isn't.
I want to clarify one teensy item here. In this discussion, I'm not arguing
for a direct correspondence between juice and cider - not something like
'cider is directly correlated to juice - simply scaled in character to some
degree.' Cider certainly has its own balance and also the effects of
fermentation and cellaring.
But cider (and not _just_ the aroma) certainly does provoke apple
associations in my brain - but not _just_ the juice. There's more to the
experience of tasting an orchard fresh apple than the juice in said apple.
There's the flesh (not even the flesh tastes the same from core to skin, or
sun to shade), skin, seeds, core (if you're the type who devours the whole
thing) and the environment around you. And I think that good cider (or wine)
carries elements of its origins (all the steps) to the taster.
So once we finish talking about what 'like' is like, maybe we can start on
what 'is' is ;-)
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Taste Expectations
From: "Drew Zimmerman" <drewzimmer@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:08:37 -0800
Well, I'm afraid I'm the one that got this apple flavor vs. cider flavor
thing started when I lamented to Charles about why Americans expect
cider to taste like fresh apples when they don't expect wine to taste
like grapes. The reason this came up is I'm beginning production of a
commercial product and am tearing myself up with the realization that if
I want to sell cider, it's going to have to meet the customer's
expectation of what cider "is" and unfortunately that expectation is
sparkling apple juice with a kick. I'll be making this product, and it
will be a lot better than what's on the grocery shelf mainly because I'm
using fresh, tree ripened fruit instead of concentrate. I figure that
if I can get folks to drink the appley stuff, I can maybe get them
curious about the other stuff, you know, cider - with fruit esters,
fusels, floral notes, astringency, bitterness and body. I'm making some
of that too, even if I have to drink it all myself!
We lost our cider drinking heritage somewhere along the way and it's
been replaced with alcohol laced apple flavored soda. Here's a link to
a pretty good paper on what happened.
http://mason.gmu.edu/~drwillia/cider.html
Drew
------------------------------
Subject: Flavor Wheel & Cider Competition
From: "Drew Zimmerman" <drewzimmer@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:19:35 -0800
There is an AICV Flavour Wheel for cider from the Association of
Cidermakers' and Fruitwine Makers' of the EU. There's a copy of it in
the course notes of the Principles and Practice course put on at WSU Mt.
Vernon. It may be proprietary, but if not, I'll try to chase down a
link or address for it.
The concept of using a spider diagram to create a flavor wheel is an
interesting one. Spider diagrams are used in product development to
represent the flavor profile in a graphic manor. I think this is an
excellent way to represent your recipe or blend and assure consistency
from batch to batch or use as ground work for preference testing. As
far as getting judges to use them in providing information to entrants
in a competition, we're perhaps asking a bit too much. It takes quite a
bit of detailed work and training to develop the scales on the diagram.
For instance what would you use to represent the 'lots' value for
astringency, or diacetyl, or acetaldehyde, or mouse? It would also
involve extensive training to get everyone on the same page as far as
values of attributes go and every judge would probably have a different
idea as to what was what.
Judging and sensory evaluation are two quite different things. Although
they require the same skills and talents, the judge applies them
differently than someone who is doing evaluation. The evaluator takes
each element i. e. odor, taste, flavor, aroma, mouthfeel, aftertaste,
etc., and places a value judgment one each one and forms an opinion of
the overall product. The judge has a different objective, he is looking
to screen the samples and eliminate the non contenders so that he can
make decisions on the remainder. It is common practice for judges to
not even taste a good percentage of the entries because of faults
detected in the odor. When the judge is down to the technically
perfect, he chooses the ones he likes best. A subjective decision. The
evaluator identifies the strong and weak points of each element and
makes an objective report. To do both of these at the same time is next
to impossible, a judge may be asked to judge 150 entries in a session, I
doubt if a sensory analyst could do more then a couple of dozen.
So if you want to know how your cider stacks up to others in a
subjective assessment by judges, submit it in a competition. If you
want to know the strengths and weaknesses of your cider and the reasons
for each, submit it for sensory evaluation and analysis. One thing to
remember, only the judges award medals.
Drew
------------------------------
Subject: Keeving, can't follow the instructions
From: mstokes@umenfa.maine.edu
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 11:59:14 -0500
I also received a small bottle of PME enzyme for keeving with full
instructions from Gary at the Coleraine Cider Day in early
November. Unfortunately, being a college professor, I can't read
the instructions correctly!
I added the PME to 5 gallons of a 10 gallon batch of juice that had
been sulfited one week earlier and in which there was no evidence
of natural fermentation. I also pitched a rehydrated and started
Lalvin yeast at the same time. My objective was to have two
batches of the same juice fermented under the same conditions
with the same yeast, one keeved and one not.
The juice was in a covered plastic brewing bucket (mistake #1) with
an OG of 1048 at 62 degrees Fahrenheit and 0.475% acidity as
tartaric acid, which is rather low I believe . I then failed to realize
that the CaCl2 weight to be added was 87g per 100 liters, not per 5
gallons (mistake #2). Consequently I added all the CaCl2 that I
had, only 68.5g, which later turned out to be 2H2O not 6H2O (2
molecules of water not 6, as specified by Gary.) By calculation
from the molecular weights, I added four times the recommended
amount of Ca ions (mistake #3.) The enzyme, yeast and Calcium
Chloride were all added together one evening.
Within twelve hours I had evidence of a brown cap forming and
within 36 hours this was a solid cover across the top of the liquid. I
could not see what was happening underneath this cover as this
was all in a white brewing bucket. I then had no time to rack off
the liquor for another 36 hours, (mistake #4). The yeast kicked in
and the fermentation started to break up the brown cap. I finally
racked to a carboy 3 days after beginning the keeving. The juice
was very clear but there was a thick brown gelatinous mass in the
bottom of the bucket. This was filtered through a Whatman #1 filter
paper (coarse) to salvage some of the liquid.
During this time John Howard was telling us through the Digest
that he was having great difficulty getting anything to happen at 51
degrees, so I was surprised that my keeving happened so quickly.
Clearly, a warmer temperature really moves these reactions along
(Boyle's Law??). As someone else said in the Digest, if the cap
falls you get a very rapid fermentation. You do indeed! My keeved
batch is much clearer than the non-keeved but after racking to a
carboy the fermentation is boiling. At this racking the keeved juice
was 1044 SG compared to 1036 for the non-keeved. Initial
fermentation rate was thus reduced. After four more days I
reracked the keeved cider to remove some of the debris that was
carried over initially and topped up with unkeeved cider. SG was
by then 1030. There has been no sign of any rekeeving of this
unkeeved juice and fermentation continues at quite a pace.
>From this fiasco I have learned the following:
1. Read the instructions, stupid.
2. Keeve in a clear vessel so you can see what is happening.
3. Doing it at 60 degrees or above really increases the rate of
reaction.
4. Adding too much Calcium appears not to be detrimental.
I will be interested to see how the two fermentations continue and
will bring some of each batch to the Bring Your Own Ciders tasting
workshop that Paul Correnty, Charlie Olchowski and I host on the
Sunday morning of Cider Days in Coleraine.
Martin Stokes
University of Maine
stokes@maine.edu
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End of Cider Digest #1183
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