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Cider Digest #1221
Subject: Cider Digest #1221, 10 May 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1221 10 May 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1220, 7 May 2005 (Jeff Connell)
RE: Cider Digest #1220, 7 May 2005 ("McGonegal, Charles")
perry-making (Dick Dunn)
Judges & Entries Needed, 12th Annual BUZZ Off May 21st ("Christopher Clair")
Re: Grafting timing (David Pickering)
making this digest known to others (Cider Digest)
perry pears and vinometers (Steury & Noel)
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1220, 7 May 2005
From: Jeff Connell <jwconnell@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 18:25:27 -0400
Please subscribe connellier@gmail.com, and unsubscribe jwconnell@gmail.com.=
Thank you.
Jeff Connell
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1220, 7 May 2005
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 18:41:05 -0500
Ben Bachelor writes:
What differences, if any, are there between apple cider making methods
and pear cider making methods.
Ben,
I'll share my experience with making 'common' perry. My experience with
perry pears is limited to making a pommeau-like product.
IMHO, perry is essentially the same as cidermaking. A slow, cool
ferment with wild, or the white wine yeast of your choice, is best. I
believe some people keeve perry must to reduce nutrient load, emulating
a Normandy technique. I don't think it's as effective as on apples. I
don't see caps forming on pear ferments like I do on ciders. And frozen
pear juice doesn't make jelly 'eels' at the edges like barrel frozen
cider does, so there must be some differences in the pectin structure
and/or enzymes.
Be careful of sulfur production when fermenting low nutrient musts.
Pectinase and time by themselves will not make a perry crystal clear.
So don't expect it to. I've never seen a perry clear by itself. Common
pears must be adjusted several g/L in acidity. It starts at nearly
zero, and needs to be at least 4. Higher to your taste.
Pears have a lot of sorbitol. A dry perry doesn't taste dry. Partly
due to low acidty, partly to the sorbitol.
Perry seems to be more sensitive to air exposure than cider. A glass
left out overnight will loose all its aroma. Perry also seems to have
slightly more color than cider.
I've been slowly working my way through a mixed case of English perries
I had shipped over. (This is sneaky - you can ship international if both
shipper and recipient are licensed alcohol producers/wholesalers. You
have to provide copies of the permits to Fedex when setting up the
shipment.) I'm learning to appreciate them, but they are not common
pear ciders or wines. Authentic Herefordshire perry leans thin, and
tart compared to common pear wines. The fruit element is 'high' in tone
and character and I thought 'acetic' or 'ethyl acetate' at first. I've
decided that it's the character of the fruit - you have to learn to
appreciate it. It has a nice tannin structure - a bit different than
cider.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: perry-making
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:13:51 -0600
Ben Bachelor <ben.bachelor@gmail.com> wrote:
...
> I'd like to try and make a few perries, but, there appears to be no
> discussion on this list of how to make perry beyond the occasional
> pear variety question, or questions about trees, or comments about
> pressings, or the occasional comment about the relative level of acids
> and tannins in pears (as a whole, not individual varieties)...
...
>...So, I guess that my question is:
> What differences, if any, are there between apple cider making methods
> and pear cider making methods.
There are several inter-related reasons you don't see much nitty-gritty
on perry here. First is that the subscriber list is mostly Americans,
and we don't have any tradition of perry. Second is that there aren't
any perries with national, or even wide-spread, distribution in the US.
If you look at the ingredient lists of the "six pack" pear products from
cider producers, you'll find that they're essentially industrial ciders
with some pear or pear-flavoring added...pretty dubious stuff, and
certainly not anything deserving the name "perry"! There are a few
small-scale producers who make honest perry (that is, fermented pear
juice rather than some food-chemist's concoction) and do a good job of
it, but their distribution is really limited. Also, I don't know of
- -any- producers in the US who are using perry pear varieties in
commercial products yet.
(At this point our British readers may be raising an eyebrow or politely
clearing their throats.:-)
Pear juice isn't easily available...certainly not like apple juice in the
fall. So if you want to make a perry, you might have to press the pears
yourself or know someone who has a press. Regular pears are difficult
because once milled they tend to be slippery, especially when fully ripe.
Depending on the type of press and the ripeness, it can be quite the
mess.
Perry pears are entirely different and require different treatment (and,
it seems, more acquired skills). They don't have the same problems in
pressing, but "managing" the tannin is a challenge. Some pears want to
be milled and then macerated for a while, perhaps overnight, to drop the
tannin to a reasonable level before pressing.
In my limited experience, but corroborated by what I've read, perries are
more susceptible to acetification.
As to lack of information resources--well Ben, you're right! At least in
the US, there isn't much to be found. Gillian Grafton's material--now
maintained and developed by Paul Gunningham--is a good source. A fair
bit of Grafton's material came from the book _Perry_Pears_, a collection
edited by Luckwill & Pollard. It's out of print but a reprinted version
has been available recently from Vigo, Ltd., in the UK. I strongly
recommend that book.
The "bottom line" if you will is that there's not a lot of information
available about perry in the US, period. But join the group of people
who are interested in it, and we'll see what we can find.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Judges & Entries Needed, 12th Annual BUZZ Off May 21st
From: "Christopher Clair" <buzzclub@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 07:07:15 -0400
One more week for entries and we are still looking for judges! Come out for
the fun and gain valuable judging experience from National, Master, and
Grand Master judges! See details below.
Thanks and good luck!
Christopher Clair
buzzclub <at> verizon.net
http://hbd.org/buzz
Brewers Unlimited Zany Zymurgists (BUZZ) is proud to announce that the 2005
BUZZ Off home brew competition will be held on Saturday, May 21st at Iron
Hill Brewery & Restaurant in West Chester, PA. For another year we will be
a qualifying event for the prestigious Masters Championship of Amateur
Brewing (MCAB) as well as the Delaware Valley Homebrewer of the Year. All
BJCP recognized styles (2004 guidelines) including meads and ciders are
eligible for entry. For complete details and forms, please visit the BUZZ
web site at http://hbd.org/buzz.
Entries will be accepted between May 1st and May 15th. For drop off and
mail in locations please refer to the BUZZ web site. Please, do not send
entries to Iron Hill.
BJCP Judges and stewards will be needed. If you are interested please
contact me or another committee member (contact information can be found on
the web site). All judges must be BJCP certified (any ranking).
Good luck and cheers!
Christopher Clair
buzzclub <at> verizon.net
http://hbd.org/buzz
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Grafting timing
From: David Pickering <davidp@netwit.net.au>
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 21:59:36 +1000
In #1216 Evan asked about topworking seedlings in the field.
I agree with Terence in #1217 but also have a think about other possibilities.
It can be beneficial to let a cut-off tree stump develop its own shoots
and then bud rather than graft these with your new cultivar in summer.
The union of the sucker to the stump will be good and you can do a good
job of sealing the top of the cut-off stump.
You do lose time because there is delay before budding and before the
bud shoots but unions are better and your scion material goes further.
David Pickering
'Linden Lea' Orange, Australia
------------------------------
Subject: making this digest known to others
From: cider-request@talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 09:51:31 -0600 (MDT)
In digest 1220, Ben Bachelor <ben.bachelor@gmail.com> wrote, in amongst
notes on cider,
>...Oh a related note, I just found this digest about a month ago. I've
> been slowly sifting through all of the archives, and have found them
> very helpful. I happened upon this list by chance while surfing the
> web one day...
> ...I've been doing the homebrew group/guild/mailing
> list thing because I didn't know that there was anything specifically
> for cider makers. This list really needs to advertise itself more
> through the local homebrew organizations because that's where a lot of
> (potential) cider makers - like me - have gone and gotten stuck
> because they were simply unaware of this inavluable resource.
OK, as the digest janitor, I guess I have to say I'm aware of the fact that
the Cider Digest isn't as well known as it might be. I haven't pushed it
very hard because I don't have a decent FAQ/intro (one of my languishing
projects). Thus, I've been reluctant to encourage a lot of people to sign
up only to have them ask "OK, so where's the beginner info?" Scaring off
beginners is really counterproductive, so I'm over-cautious about it.
But the digest has been around for almost 14 years, so it -shouldn't- be
hard to find. You've got a good point!
What you suggest - "advertising" through local groups - would be effective
but it's hard to do because they're hard to find. If there were some
central place to provide the info or make it easier to find, I'd do that.
There was an article on cider in _Zymurgy_ last year that gave the digest
info in a sidebar, and we got a good new bunch of subscribers as a result.
But if that only happens once every <n> years, it's a scant boost overall.
(FYI, the Cider Digest list is currently some 56% of the size of the Mead
Lover's Digest.)
If I cleaned up the cider sub-page of talisman.com's web pages, I could
in good conscience suggest that people start linking to it. That would
boost the web presence so that browsers would find it sooner.
I do have a handout about the Cider Digest--a little quarter-sheet squib.
(It prints as 4 copies to the page and you cut it once each direction.)
I take a handful whenever I'm going to some cider-related event. Gives
background, purpose, rules, how to sign up. I could make that available
as a PDF so folks could print up copies, and/or I could send out a printed
batch via USnail if a group wanted them for a meeting. Let me know what
I can do on any of this stuff--send to
cider-request@talisman.com
to get it to me rather than having it posted to the digest.
What I'm getting at is that if folks can suggest media/venues for making
info about the digest available, I'll see what I can do. There's a new
set of expanded guidelines/categories for BJCP competitions that came out
last year, and they open up some territory that homebrewers haven't yet
explored much (e.g., the traditional English and French styles). Thus it
seems like an opportune time to work on stronger connections with the
homebrewing community in particular.
- ---
Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: perry pears and vinometers
From: Steury & Noel <steurynoel@mail.potlatch.com>
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 21:22:25 -0700
I caught the tail end of a conversation about perry pears. Cummins
Nursery has a good selection of them, as I recall. I've got Butt, Red
Pear, Thorn, and a couple others, all legally procured from Cummins. Jim,
aren't you on this list? Also, a couple Normanischen, from Illinois, I
believe.
I recently bought a vinometer, because I happened to see it and it cost
only $5. Much to my surprise, it worked fine. 8% alcohol, which fit my
sugar prediction exactly.
An amazing bloom here in Idaho, by the way, in spite of 24 F. two nights in
a row early on.
Tim Steury
Diane Noel, Tim Steury, and David Steury
1021 McBride Road
Potlatch, ID 83855 USA
208.875.0804
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End of Cider Digest #1221
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