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Cider Digest #1194
Subject: Cider Digest #1194, 21 January 2005
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1194 21 January 2005
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re:Malolactic Fermentation (km) (Warren Place)
Bitter brew (Tim Bray)
Question about Kingston Black (Tim Bray)
Bitter cider (Andrew Lea)
Re: Cider Digest #1193, 19 January 2005 ("Reynold Tomes")
Malo-lactic fermentation (Andrew Lea)
Re: Bitter Brew (Dick Dunn)
Re: Training Kingston Black ("Ian A. Merwin")
Malolactic Fermentation ("John Howard")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re:Malolactic Fermentation (km)
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:30:09 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 km wrote:
> Subject: Malolactic Fermentation (MLF)
> 1.) The temperature in my shed is about 4deg C right now and varies at
> this time of year between 4-9degC. I understand that malolactic cultures
> need significantly warmer temps to work. Would it be a total waste of
> time to put the culture in at this stage? Or could I put it in and hope
> it ferments slowly?
MLF can be hard enough to start with all things being perfect so I
wouldn't rehydrate the bacteria when the conditions are inhospitable.
Wait until the spring when things warm up a bit and then innoculate.
Also, if you see renewed fermentation activity as the cider warms up, you
might find that you have indigenous bacteria doing the MLF for you. You
can still inoculate at that time to ensure that MLF is completed by proven
bacteria.
> 2.) Assuming I put the culture in at the right time and everything goes
> hunky-dory, can I add priming sugar in before bottling and expect it to
> ferment properly in the bottle to give that satisfying fizzy plop? Or
> does the malolactic culture affect this?
Priming should occur as without MLB.
>
> 3.) If this is a malolactic fermentation formula COOH-H2OC-H2C-COOH --->
> CH3-CHOH-COOH + CO2 then I see that CO2 is also produced. Would it be
> theoretically possible to add the malolactic culture prior to bottling
> and save myself the trouble of a priming sugar? (This is of course
> assuming that moderate and not massive amounts of CO2 are produced.) Is
> there a residual deposit from malolactic fermentation?
>
> Thanks in advance for any help
>
> Kurt
>
While MLF does produce CO2, you'd have to figure out if there is
enough malic acid to convert to make adequate CO2. Plus, sometimes MLF is
hard to complete. I'd rather let malic acid go to completion and then add
a dose of priming sugar. Maybe I'm biased because I work in a yeast lab
and not the MLB lab down the hall. :)
Warren Place
------------------------------
Subject: Bitter brew
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:12:42 -0800
Tim,
There is one very easy way to improve your cider: wait. Ciders generally
improve with age for about a year after fermentation. The yeasty after
taste in particular usually ages out after a few months.
Now let's talk about flavor terminology. Are you sure that the cider is
"bitter," rather than "sharp?" Cooking apples are generally high in acid
and low in tannins, producing a cider that is very acidic and therefore
"sharp" to the taste. When the weather warms up, you may be lucky enough
to get a natural malo-lactic fermentation, which will reduce that sharpness
quite a bit. If it doesn't happen naturally, or if you don't want to trust
to luck, you can add a ML culture.
Bitterness is typically associated with tannins, and in cider is regarded
as an improvement (just as it is in beer). It's possible to overdo it,
just as in beer, but without any tannic cider apples I cannot see how that
could occur.
Sourness is also possible, usually from acetification - the cider has a
vinegary taste. But it can also come from wild yeasts or bacteria, as in
certain styles of Belgian beer.
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: Question about Kingston Black
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:13:47 -0800
Mike,
My KBs grow a little oddly too, although I haven't used limb spreaders as
the trees have opened up on their own in response to pruning. I haven't
seen the particular effect you describe. My 4-year-old trees on MM111
produced a very few fruits in their 3rd year and more in their 4th, but
still not very productive. What rootstock are yours on? What nursery are
they from? I'd contact the nursery and ask them about the odd growth
habit. You may need to prune out excessive shoots to encourage stronger
branching.
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: Bitter cider
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:11:25 +0000
Tim Watson wrote:
>
> We are UK based and have produced our first ever brew using
> predominately cooking style apples.
Perhaps your expectations were unrealistic. A fully fermented dry cider
made from cooking apples is next to undrinkable by most people due to
its high acidity and general lack of body, I'm afraid.
> The fermentation was problematic due we reckon to low temperatures in
> the shed we were using.
Commercial wine yeasts do not ferment well and maybe not at all at low
temperatures (say < 15C). Oddly enough, wild yeasts often do better in
the cold. Did you add sulphite and if so, did you tailor the amount you
added to the juice pH? If not, you may have inhibited the yeast too much.
> We re-introduced some more yeast and sugar and warmed the vessel with
> a heater ring and the brew appeared to go on and finish fermenting.
> The result was a clear cider but very bitter and with a slight after
> taste of yeast.
Heating a yeast will certainly enhance its bitterness. Many wine yeasts
(esp Champagne) do seem to give a very bitter finish with apples in any
case.
Reading between the lines I'd maybe guess you're coming from a
homebrewing background? Forget it! Cider is an apple wine and you have
to think like a winemaker! Modesty should forbid my mentioning it but
there is a fair bit of (albeit sometimes conflicting) advice on my website!
Andrew Lea (UK)
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1193, 19 January 2005
From: "Reynold Tomes" <rtomes@burnsmcd.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:37:53 -0600
Subject: Kingston Black observations
From: Reynold Tomes rtomes@burnsmcd.com
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005
Re: Mike Miller's question about the upward growth habit of Kingston
Black in Cider Digest #1193, 19 January 2005...
I have 3 cider apple trees (Roxbury Russet, Golden Russet and Kingston
Black from Cummins Nursery) that have been in the ground now for 2
growing seasons in Kansas City. The Kingston Black (KB), which is on
M.7 rootstock, has been the most vigorous grower of the three during
that time. The KB definitely has a greater tendency toward apical
dominance (vertical shoot growth) than either the Roxbury or the Golden
Russet; it is almost like a pear tree in this regard. I have not
noticed the other thing you mentioned; multiple branching where lateral
branches turn upward. In late February, I am planning to dormant prune
most of the vertical shoots on the KB back to where they start to curve
upward while taking care to terminate each cut at a bud on the underside
or outside of each shoot that is pruned. This should force the new
shoot growth from these terminal buds to be more horizontal, at least
for some distance, before they turn upward again. I suspect the same
procedure will be required in subsequent years until the scaffold
branches are well established.
Regards,
Reynold Tomes
------------------------------
Subject: Malo-lactic fermentation
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:42:33 +0000
Kurt Marshall wrote:
>
> 1.) The temperature in my shed is about 4deg C right now and varies
> at this time of year between 4-9degC. I understand that malolactic
> cultures need significantly warmer temps to work. Would it be a total
> waste of time to put the culture in at this stage? Or could I put it
> in and hope it ferments slowly?
>
The Biostart Oenos I've used has a minimum spec of 17C. Anecdotal
evidence suggests that ML bacteria do not work at all in the cold - they
shut down completely. I think it's a waste of time until the weather
warms up. Traditional MLF starts at apple blossom time, for good reasons.
> 2.) Assuming I put the culture in at the right time and everything
> goes hunky-dory, can I add priming sugar in before bottling and
> expect it to ferment properly in the bottle to give that satisfying
> fizzy plop? Or does the malolactic culture affect this?
>
I think the yeast may be antagonistic to the MLF. They will both be
competing for the same trace vitamins and nutrients and the yeast will
likely win out. Normal recommendation is not to inoculate with ML
cultures until all yeast activity is finished.
> 3.) If this is a malolactic fermentation formula COOH-H2OC-H2C-COOH
> ---> CH3-CHOH-COOH + CO2 then I see that CO2 is also produced. Would
> it be theoretically possible to add the malolactic culture prior to
> bottling and save myself the trouble of a priming sugar? (This is of
> course assuming that moderate and not massive amounts of CO2 are
> produced.) Is there a residual deposit from malolactic fermentation?
Yes this is possible in theory and can /does happen in traditional
practice (eg sparkling Vinho Verde). It _might_ be better than your plan
in (2). The CO2 production for a typical 3 g/l acid loss would be about
1 g/l. That's about 0.5 volumes of CO2 at STP, which is within the
solubility level and virtually undetectable. With a larger acid loss you
might see the odd bubble or two. At best it's a slight petillance and
certainly not overt carbonation. However, many people prefer this and
the dissolved CO2 should certainly help to lift the general flavour.
Generally there is no deposit from MLF because the bacteria are too
small to be seen and too small to settle quickly (Brownian motion).
However, if they grow really well the whole cider might become cloudy
and that cloud will not readily settle. That has happened (in bulk) to me.
I think you should try it and report back!
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bitter Brew
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:47:13 -0700 (MST)
"Tim Watson" <tim_watson1@msn.com> wrote:
> We are UK based and have produced our first ever brew using predominately
> cooking style apples. The fermentation was problematic due we reckon to low
> temperatures in the shed we were using. We re-introduced some more yeast and
> sugar and warmed the vessel with a heater ring and the brew appeared to go
> on and finish fermenting. The result was a clear cider but very bitter and
> with a slight after taste of yeast.
Your use of the word "brew" is a caution, although perhaps a false alarm.
Did you actually "brew" it?...that is, did you heat the juice? If so,
that's the first thing you need to change...and it may be hard to tell
which other practices may have contributed to your problem until you get
the effect of heating out of the way.
Cooking apples would usually be expected to produce a thin, sharp cider,
not bitter at all. Bitterness could come from mistreating the yeast and/or
leaving the cider on the lees too long after fermentation is complete.
More details might help--how much sugar did you add at first? later on?
What sort of yeast did you use? It's still going to be a bit of a guessing
game to figure it out, but more info might help us rule out some of the
possible causes.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Training Kingston Black
From: "Ian A. Merwin" <im13@cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:51:15 -0500
In response to Mike Miller's recent question about upright branches
on Kingston Black--that is a typical response for Kingston Black and
many of the more vigorous apple and pear varieties. Once the tree
begins to produce fruit, the crop load on the outer branches will
naturally pull them down into a more flat angle. Another option
would be to use longer spreaders (about 3 ft in length) to push down
those lateral branches beyond the initial upward curves. Pruning in
the early years with apples and pears is a minimalist art: The less
you do, the better it works. The emphasis is better placed on
training branches where you want them rather than pruning off
branches where you don't want them. A very effective strategy is to
use clothespins (the kind with metal springs) when the new shoots are
3 to 5 inches long (usually early to mid June) to form a horizontal
juncture with the new shoots and vertical axis (central leader).
This will produce a strong branch connection to help prevent split
crotches during later crop years. Then in the second and third years
keep spreading or tying those branches down (if they turn upwards
again) to around 60 degrees from the central leader until they begin
to fruit. The best branch angle varies depending upon the varieties;
some apples and many pears will produce vertical "water sprouts" or
suckers near the branch base if you flatten them too much; others
(like Brown Snout, Dabinett, Binet Rouge, etc.) are more cooperative
and will tend to spur up and fruit well after a few years of branch
repositioning. The most common problem is excessive pruning and
insufficient training. Try to minimize pruning in the early years and
resist the urge to over fertilize your trees. Once established,
productive apple tree need annual potassium applications (usually
about 100 lbs K per acre, ideally as sulfate of potassium/magnesiuim
or "sulpomag)") but little or no fertilizer nitrogen, unless they are
growing on a poor quality soil with little organic matter and
insufficient weed control). If you do things right in the first two
years, apple trees will begin to flower and fruit by the second or
third year. The resources that would otherwise go into growing
vigorous upright lateral branches will instead go into fruit that
will weigh down and calm those lateral branches, developing more
productive branch angles and putting some cider in your barrels.
- --
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((!)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Ian A. Merwin, PhD
Assoc. Prof. of Horticulture & International Agriculture
118 Plant Science Bldg
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, USA, 14853
Telephone: 607-255-1777
<www.hort.cornell.edu/department/faculty/merwin/index.htm>
------------------------------
Subject: Malolactic Fermentation
From: "John Howard" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:48:23 -0500
Kurt, I experimented a little with malolactic fermentation (MLF) last
season.
1) I found the MLF to turn off and on like a switch at 60F (15.5C). My
package of Wyeast liquid culture had survived refrigerated for several
months, so if your Vinoferm - Malocid culture is liquid, why not pitch now
and see what happens? It will probably just remain dormant until spring.
2) A completed MLF will not inhibit an in bottle yeast/sugar fermentation.
3) I did not try getting some in-bottle fizz with just a straight MLF. But,
I believe it is often done and probably happens spontaneously just as often
. I don't know if there would be a deposit from a MLF. I did inoculate some
back sweetened (1.12sg) cider with MLF and bottled it in heavy champagne
bottles. After a couple months at slightly above 60F it was both less
acidic, and bone dry, and very very sparkling!
Hope you are starting out with a high acid juice. The thing about MLF, IMHO,
is taken too far it can create an insipid cider. Keep in mind you can stop
the MLF with a good shot of SO2.
Best of luck!
John Howard
Philadelphia PA USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1194
*************************
