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Cider Digest #1176
Subject: Cider Digest #1176, 9 November 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1176 9 November 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Gwatkin cider/perry in U.S.? (Benjamin Watson)
Re:Opinions ("John C. Campbell III")
the lament for cider? (Dick Dunn)
Re: Fusel-Solvent Flavor ("T. J. Higgins ")
Subject: Perry ("John Howard")
Re: Cider Digest #1174, 4 November 2004 (John Emmett)
CiderDay? (Cider Digest)
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Subject: Re: Gwatkin cider/perry in U.S.?
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 08:39:24 -0500
Dick Dunn wrote:
> About a year ago (at last year's Franklin County Cider Day, in fact) there
> was a distributor touting the idea that Gwatkin's cider and perry would
> soon be available in the US. Did it ever happen? Has anybody out there
> seen any of it?
We are in the midst of Cider Day activities this weekend -- I'm heading
back down to western Mass. this morning, in fact.
The fellow Dick mentions was present yesterday afternoon at the Cider
Salon tasting, with a few bottles of Gwatkin cider and three
single-variety perries from Minchew -- all of which, I gather he is
representing in the U.S. My understanding last year was that they were
going to import Gwatkin as "real cider" (let's not open THAT discussion
again) in the CAMRA sense, i.e., in poly casks.
I don't have this fellow's name, but will try to get it from Terry
Maloney at West County Cider and let the CD know if Gwatkin and
Minchew's are available in this country now. It would be nice to have
some good perry.
I didn't get an accurate count of the number of people at the Cider
Salon, but it was as large or larger than in previous years -- some
familiar faces from the Cider Digest (John Howard, Gary Awdey), but
also new faces, as happens every year. The attendance for yesterday
morning's events was also reportedly large.
US cidermakers represented at the Cider Salon yesterday were West
County Cider (MA), Furnace Brook Winery (MA), Farnum Hill Ciders (NH),
Sow's Ear Winery (ME), Eve's Cidery (NY), Bellwether Hard Cider (NY),
AEppel Treow Winery (WI), White Oak Cider (OR), Westcott Bay Orchards
(WA), Ford Farm Cyderworks (OR).
Speaking of importing cider, I recently had a conversation with a
fellow who lives in Greenfield, NH, the town next to mine. His name is
Richard Stadnik, and he is selling cider commercially this year for the
first time, mainly regionally in southern NH. The cider is called Pup's
Monadnock Harvest Cider, or just Pup's Cider, and is being sold in 22
oz. bottles (and will be available in 12 oz. bottles in six-packs, I
believe).
I mention him because he is representing Sheppey's cider from the UK,
and Stadnik is thinking about importing some ciders from France and
Canada. His web site, which I have not visited yet, is
www.pupscider.com.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Re:Opinions
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 20:50:30 -0500
> Re: Opinions, experience from the Cider Digest readership (Dick Dunn)
> I've found that if people a lot smarter than me don't have an answer,
> either I'm asking the wrong question or I'm asking it in the wrong way.
> (snip)
I'm not altogether sure what -that observation- has to do with my question
- -snicker- Of course ... then again, if someone asked me an earnest question
which they felt they needed an answer to (regarding my areas of expertise)
but the question was poorly put ... I'd go back and ask them "was this what
you meant to ask"? And try and help them get the answer they required.
But then again that could be a function of levels of compassion verses
studious disinterest. Strangely enough, the car manufacturers can posit
'estimated highway and city mileage' with the comfortable disclaimer that
"your results may vary" ... nonetheless I find that most are fairly accurate
despite the fact that I do not drive on their 'test track'. Granted their
'variables are more documentable but the disclaimer would serve the
same purpose
My experience over the last ten years with horticultural vendors on this
issue (regarding fruit tree yields) is that they seem to flatly ignore
the question or change the subject. I should perhaps pose the question
instead, to folks like Tom Burford and Andrew Lea (who have actually grown
more than a few trees for the purpose of actually -using- the fruit as
opposed to grafting 'starts' to polish their skills in reselling them to
guileless unsuspecting customers. I've had more than one nursery owner
confess that they 'invented' names for plants they were selling because
the Latin name didn't 'excite' the customer and then substitued that title
leaving off the Latin entirely. . When I was in elementary school at in
San Diego in the late fifites, early sixties (my father was in the Vanguard
/ Atlas ICBM program at Rose Canyon) ... Dr. Werner Von Braun came to
lecture us on "astrodynamics". When he was through, we actually had been
given some understanding of the topic. After the presentation I overheard
one of the teachers complimenting him on being able to teach this stuff to
a bunch of 3rd and 4th graders and he shook the compliment off and said:
"anyone who can -only- explain their science or disciple to people who are in
their peer knowledge group ... do not understand their science or disciple
as well as they think they do". with a chuckle. I've found that to be
a reliable benchmark over the years. You don't have to know much about
cars to sell used ones .... and he was assuredly a much smarter man than I.
>
> There are gross rules of thumb for annual yield--1 bushel for dwarf, a few
> for semi-dwarf, 10 or more for standard. I assume you've seen those.
> (snip)
> How much more can you expect? There's an awful lot of variables, and they
> (snip)
> But who could possibly know?As Jeremy said, "Be empirical!"What else can you
> do?
> Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
Well the first thing I probably could have done was take a black magic
marker in the orchard catalogs to the various phases "High producer" or
"stable producer" or "variable producer". And reinsert "this is Shuck and
jive" on the part of a merchant. (we could leave in "has a tendency to
be a biennial producer") because in order to make that observation, we're
only talking about "does" or "does not have fruit this year". But I guess
optimistic soul that I was, in the adventure of procurement ... I foolishly
assumed that they had some thumbnail reference to benchmark against, to make
such pronouncements in their product descriptions ... v.g. the observation
that we all have seen regarding 'a few bushels' for semi-dwarfs, etc.
Ergo et sum, if a "few" means three bushels per semi dwarf then a "high
producer" might almost double the yield, a "reliable producer" would likely
meet the yield routinely, etc. That was why I suggested in my -initial-
question, the analogy that if you had a wizened diseased Kingston Black
in your stock the statistics you provided wouldn't be very useful. I do
notice Dick that you (so far) are the only one who has commented on yields.
But I also assumed that some scientific source had calculated a rough
statistic from observable phenomena, on the various varieties we are
talking about since some have been produced even in "bush apple trees"
(semi-dwarf) for half a century if my copy of "A Somerset Pomona" by
Liz Copas, is to be believed. Taking into account the skews of average
based upon wide swings in statistics well, perhaps the numbers would be
less than accurate, but if someone tells me that a Yarlington Mill is a
'high' producer Gosh, I would have thought they just might not have pulled
the comment out of 'thin air' or their socks. Silly me. As an old econ
professor, Lester Thurow used to say often in his lectures: "There are
'lies', 'damn lies' and 'statistics'."
I was not alone in my surmise about the data ... the owner (Michael McConkey
)one of the nurseries referenced ("Edible Landscaping") and to his credit,
- -the only one- I might add to even attempted to respond to the question,
had the following thought:
> John, I have seen many university tables of pound of fruit corresponding
> with age of tree. If you can get a text book of apple production for U of
> MD you should get a general idea.
> Michael
>
I also had no less than four people (rather bright people at that I
should point out) remark off list, that they also would be interested in
what answers I got because they had the same concerns I do in calculating
equipment costs. Of course (silly me) I didn't realize that all of these
Nursery owners were "Smarter than me" ... -sigh- I only have an I.Q. of
179 ... Worse luck, I just should have known.
jccampb
------------------------------
Subject: the lament for cider?
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 21:11:27 -0700
On a recent vacation, I had the privilege to see several old English books
on cider...celebrating the apple, noting the particular high quality to
which the best cider may aspire, and such.
Andrew Lea noted that one common thread through these old books is a lament
of the failure to appreciate cider's potential, the lost opportunity of
England's orchards (or perhaps of English, or the world's, appreciation)
to place the best cider up on a par with the world's best wines. Andrew
noted similar comments in the seminal books by Worlidge (1691), Knight
(1797), and Hogg&Bull (1886). I'm sure once we've got enough historical
perspective to identify seminal cider book(s) of the late 20th century,
we will be able to add one more century to this sequence of cider's failure
to be recognized for its full potential!
Shall we call cider the Rodney Dangerfield of fermented beverages?
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Fusel-Solvent Flavor
From: "T. J. Higgins " <tjhiggin@hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:58:59 -0600
Harrison Gibbs wrote:
> Most of my ciders have a strong fusel-solvent flavor. [...]
> Does anyone know where this flavor comes from,
> and if so how do I reduce it?
One cause of fusels is fermentation temperatures that are too
high. Assuming you are fermenting at room temp, try fermenting
at 50 F instead. Note that fermentation will take a lot longer
at lower temps. In any case, whichever yeast you are using,
ferment at the low end of the temp range specified on the
package.
Wild yeasts are another cause of fusels. Be sure you are
killing all the wild yeast before introducing your desired
yeast.
T.J. Higgins
Huntsville, AL
------------------------------
Subject: Subject: Perry
From: "John Howard" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:51:17 -0500
I drank some very cheesy smelling ciders and perrys in Normandy. One farm's
cider smelled just like the Camembert cheese for which his region is famous.
Some folks attribute this smell to a Brettanomyces infection and will tell
you its just part of the "terroir" of your farm. There are plenty of old
vineyards in France infected with Brett and apparently cideries too.
John Howard
Becker & Frondorf
1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1910
Philadelphia PA 19102
P (215) 772-1400 ext.16
F (215) 772- 0727
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1174, 4 November 2004
From: John Emmett <jlemmett@iinet.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:10:19 -0800
Please note new email address for John Emmett:
jlemmett@iinet.com
------------------------------
Subject: CiderDay?
From: cider-request@talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:51:20 -0700 (MST)
I held this digest a day or so hoping someone would post more info/news
about Franklin County Cider Day. Don' yall be shoutin all t'oncet, heah?
Dick
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End of Cider Digest #1176
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