Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1168
Subject: Cider Digest #1168, 3 October 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1168 3 October 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Digests will be slow (Cider Digest)
RE:Quincy ("McGonegal, Charles")
Golden Russets ("McGonegal, Charles")
Re: English Russet and Golden Russet ("Gary Awdey")
Re: Cider Digest #1167, 2 October 2004 (Bill Rhyne)
Re: Golden Russet Vs Golden Russet... (Tim Bray)
Stopping fermentation (Andrew Lea)
Golden Russets..two types! (Heron Breen)
Kiwi fruit ("Darlene Hanson / Darcy Wardrop")
Winter pears ? ("Darlene Hanson / Darcy Wardrop")
Re: quinces (Benjamin Watson)
Middlebury mystery (Benjamin Watson)
cider questions (Benjamin Watson)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Digests will be slow
From: cider@talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 01:33:05 -0600 (MDT)
Your ever-indolent digest janitor is going to be traveling in October.
Since he is rather the Luddite, and seeks out destinations which accord
with this predilection, there may be a longer-than-usual period during
which no digest will appear. There are provisions for a substitute
janitor for some part of this period, but the arrangement is unreliable
at best.
In short, if you've got something to say that needs to get out between now
and late October, speak up!
- ---
Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: RE:Quincy
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 08:50:41 -0500
Dave,
Somewhere I've seen references to quincy as 'quince cider' - but I can't
seem to locate the reference now.
My copy of Vinetum Britannicum says:
"Although _Quinces_ yield no Vinous Juice pleafant to the Palate, yet they
are not to be rejected in our Plantation or Vineyard, for their excellencie
in the Kitchin and in the Confervatory."
But maybe qunice cultivars have been improved somewhat in the last 300
years. I'd glad someone is pressing and trying them.
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Golden Russets
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 08:55:04 -0500
Chris,
We grow what is supposed to be English Golden Russet. It's one of my
favorites, and I use as much as I can lay my hands on.
Ken Weston's antique apple orchard is about 30 miles north of us. He has
something else called 'Golden Russet' that I've assumed was the New York
version. His is slightly smoother - the russeting is finer, less course.
And it has a single distinct rib, and is ever so slightly crowned. Our
English golden russet is more evenly round.
They are both good in cider. I think the English one is a little richer.
It could be terroir, though.
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Re: English Russet and Golden Russet
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:09:47 -0400
In Digest #1167 Chris Horn wrote:
>
>"The New Book of Apples" talks of Beach (Apples of NY) stating that there
>were two Golden Russets. One being English and the other one being Western
>New York..... Any one have both types or are they really that different???
>I don't have a copy of Beach to see what he really says about that....
Historically some of the confusion has resulted from difference in
appearance of the same varieties when grown under different conditions (or
sometimes similarity of different varieties). When I graft a Golden Russet
now I'm careful to keep track of the scion source (and have taken to
grafting a sample of each onto the same mature tree for later comparison).
Here's what Beach has to say:
(start quote)
[English Russet] may be distinguished from the Golden Russet, which is also
called by some English Golden Russet, by its straight-growing habit, with
erect shoots forming an upright or round top. The Golden Russet trees are
more vigorous, spreading, irregular and bushy. The English Russet twigs of
one season's growth have more of a clear reddish-brown color, and the
lenticels, being comparatively dull in color and only moderately numerous,
are not very conspicuous, although they are are sometimes large, while the
Golden Russet twigs when highly colored are darker brown, varying towards
olive-green where the color is less strongly developed. They are finely
mottled with grayish scarf-skin, and the roundish lenticels, although they
are usually small, are numerous and conspicuous, having a clear, pale color.
On the bark of the second season's growth the lenticels are elongated
transversely, still numerous and decidedly conspicuous.
In the English Russet the tendency of the fruit to become narrow toward the
eye is more marked than in the Golden Russet, and it's calyx is more often
open, with the lobes reflexed. The Golden Russet basin is often the wider
and markedly saucer-shaped, with the calyx set in a narrow, green or
yellowish circle which contrasts sharply with the surrounding russet. The
stem of the Golden Russet is usually the shorter and stouter, while that of
the English Russet often has a brownish-red streak not found on the other.
The cavity of the Golden Russet is somewhat larger and wider, but on the
average is hardly as deep as that of the English Russet. It is often marked
with grayish dots, while that of the English russet is not. The skin of the
Golden Russet varies from a dull greenish russet to golden russet; and when
grown under favorable conditions sometimes has a bronze blush, but it does
not take a polish. The skin of the English russet shows no sign of a blush,
but it is somewhat the smoother, paler and brighter in color, and takes a
good polish. The flesh of the Golden Russet is richer in flavor, more
tender, and of higher quality than that of the English Russet; its seeds
shave a more marked red tinge; its core is more is more distinctly abaxile;
its cells are more often unsymmetrical; its carpels are more concave and its
seeds are broader, more irregular in form and size, less acute and more
distinclty tufted.
(end of quote)
In Ragan's NOMENCLATURE OF THE APPLE (1905) the lists of synonyms are very
confusing and have the potential to mislead if not used with care. Names
reference each other in a complicated web of local (and imprecise)
synonyms. For example Golden Russet of Western NY lists English Golden
Russet and English Golden as synonyms; English Golden is also listed as a
synonym of English Golden Pippin; English Golden Pippin lists Golden Pippin
as a synonym; Golden Pippin synonyms include Davenport, Downton, Franklin,
Golding, Ortley, Belmont and Lowell. Some other names linked to Golden
Russet through similar use (or misuse) of synonyms include Long-Limbed
Russet, Pokeepsie (Poughkeepsie) Russet, Winter Russet, Golden Mundi,
Russet Golden, Golden Russet of Massachusetts, Hunt Russet, and Limber Twig
Russet.
Gary
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1167, 2 October 2004
From: Bill Rhyne <bill_rhyne@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 08:16:59 -0700 (PDT)
Regarding Bulmers:
Dick,
My understanding is that the previous CEO of Bulmers had a grand global
expansion strategy and part of that included the acquisition of Woodchuck
and Cider Jack for the purposes of instant increase in market share and
localized (US) production capacity that would cut freight and importation
costs for their products, Strongbow and Woodpecker.
Given the tough times that they are facing and I think the possibility that
they may be acquired by another company(if it hasn't already happened),
they made moves to retreat from the previous strategy.
You can check their website or do a google search and find more information
if you like.
I hope that helps.
Bill Rhyne
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Golden Russet Vs Golden Russet...
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 09:15:28 -0700
>"The New Book of Apples" talks of Beach (Apples of NY) stating that there
>were two Golden Russets. One being English and the other one being Western
>New York.....
Is that Morgan & Richards? My copy says that the English Golden Russet is
"probably now lost. Edward Bunyard failed to find it true in the 1920s."
(American) Golden Russet is pretty distinctive: medium-sized, dark yellow
to bronze ground more or less covered with gold russeting, round-conical,
dense sugary white flesh with a distinctive rich, honeyed taste. Ripens
very late. Juice is rich, syrupy, high-gravity. The tree is a vigorous
grower, handsome, with wide crotch angles, easy to train, small leaves,
very productive.
If that describes one of yours, then you just need to figure out what the
other is... which might be difficult!
Cheers,
Tim
=====================================
Listen to Oak & Thorn, two hours of Celtic music
Sundays 9-11 AM Pacific time
www.kzyx.org
------------------------------
Subject: Stopping fermentation
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 17:59:30 +0100
Tim Watson asked:
>
> 1st year of doing cider. 1st batch in 5 gallon fermenting vessel and 99.00%
> cooking apples. Brew located in garden shed and ambient temp 10-15c. Started
> off great and then stopped. Added sugar and more yeast and went great for a
> few days but now stopped again. Coming to conclusion that no sugar left for
> yeast and temp too low. Are we correct.?
>
The obvious question is - what was the SG at each stage, and how much
sugar did you add?
If you do not use a hydrometer to check this you are shooting in the
dark. And if you did use a hydrometer then surely you will know the
answer already?
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Golden Russets..two types!
From: Heron Breen <breen@fedcoseeds.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 15:25:42 -0500
I ran into this a few years ago in Massachusetts at a friend's
orchard/winery. Bullock is a "golden russett" that was in primary use
in warmer areas, and non-English Domain. New York was settled by
Dutch etc and were less familial with this English Golden Russett
(EMG). My friend ordered 20 or so "Golden Russetts" and they were all
ready for eating by mid Sept and sweet/balanced flavor. EMG as most
of you know are later and tart/ bitter til storage mellows them, or
tree hanging. To add to the confusion, a well-known southern states
pomologist/nurseryman identified the Mass unknowns as Golden Russett
because American Golden Russett (AMG) was what he knew as golden
russett. It took some fiddling with reference books to get an exact
ID. AMG has more of a netting of russett and a shinier smooth surface
in between, while EGR is dull and covered with the russett. Bullock
is sometimes refered to as AMG and sometimes it seems another apple
recieves this name, just labeled Bullock. I would assume AMG is what
you have run into, and many southern states heirloom folks, as well
as non-New England nurseries call AMG the Golden Russett. Well worth
checking with any nursery you buy from now that we have at least two
confirmed cases of confusion. I do not know whether AMG is worth
anything as a cider apple, which may be the most important
information. Hope this helps!
Heron Breen
------------------------------
Subject: Kiwi fruit
From: "Darlene Hanson / Darcy Wardrop" <d_hanson@oberon.ark.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:36:55 -0700
I have a large kiwi vine loaded with fruit this year . My plan is to mix a
fair load of them in with apple juice to make a kiwi cider.They have made
excellent wine in the past.
I am looking for advice to best get them to full ripeness . I am basicly a
backyard orchardist and located on the north end of Vancouver Island.
Darcy Wardrop
Campbell River BC
------------------------------
Subject: Winter pears ?
From: "Darlene Hanson / Darcy Wardrop" <d_hanson@oberon.ark.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:44:07 -0700
Also in my adventures I have come across a small pear about the size of a
golf ball. Biting into one they are at first intensely sweet and then huge
mouth drying pucker factor. The owner of the rental property told me they
were winter pears and were no good untill after a frost. He had no use for
them and allowed me to pick about ten lbs that I could reach without a
ladder. It is unlikely that anyone in this area ever planted a Perry pear
and I did here reference a few letters back to a Crab Pear. My intention is
to blend them in with my Bosc and Conference pears to make a perry. I would
welcome any more information about these type of pears , when best to pick
,ripening, blending or anything else.
Darcy Wardrop
------------------------------
Subject: Re: quinces
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 09:27:38 -0400
Dave Orson wrote:
> I have question relating to quinces and quince wine.
> As quinces are a sort of pome fruit and share a lot of the
> characteristics of both apples and pears, has anyone ever tried making
> wine (Cider) out of them ????
> Is there a history of doing so and does it have a name, (apples-cider,
> pears-perry) etc.
I love quinces -- though they are hard to find in New Hampshire and
definitely a "difficult" fruit, in that you can't eat them out of hand.
But they perfume a room, and are delightful when stewed with meats like
lamb or pork. And they're nice used with apples in pies and tarts, etc.
I try to make quince preserves every fall.
I've also tried making quince wine, by grating the quinces whole, if I
recall correctly. The resulting wine was perfectly drinkable, but
unusual and probably more of a curiosity than anything else. Also, my
wine developed some wispy infection or breakage after a year or so in
storage -- don't know why. So I didn't find it very stable, in my first
and only try at quince wine.
I know that when you press half pears and half apples, by convention
you call it perry. I've even heard of "chequers", which is what you
call a cider when you add rowan (mountain ash) berries to the press,
mainly for the tannins. But I've never heard a name when you add
quinces for tannins and aromas -- Quincy? This could be a new category!
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Middlebury mystery
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 09:42:02 -0400
Dick Dunn asked why most of the major "draft cider" brands come from
Middlebury, VT.
Unless something has changed and I'm totally out the loop, H.P. Bulmer
owns both Cider Jack and Woodchuck and a few years ago consolidated
their operations up in Middlebury, which is where Cider Jack had its
plant.
Woodchuck Cider was originally a brand introduced by the Joseph
Cerniglia Winery in Cavendish, VT. Cerniglia retired and shut down the
winery a few years ago, and sold the Woodchuck brand to Stroh's, which
owned and operated Green Mountain Cidery in Springfield, VT until the
sale to Bulmer a few years ago.
With all the sweet, fizzy draft cider being made in Vermont (and
inflicted on the rest of the country), it's too bad the state doesn't
have more and better artisan cideries. One would think that with its
strong agricultural traditions and tourist economy, there would be a
lot of farmstead cidermakers. At present, there is only Flag Hill Farm
in Vershire, which makes an interesting and "wilder", more natural
cider than other producers (plus an apple eau de vie). And there's
Putney Mountain Winery, which makes chaptalized sparkling apple wines
and a good pommeau.
That's pretty much it. They do make a cider in other small VT wineries,
from Jacksonville in the south to Cambridge way up north -- but in my
opinion they are not distinguished.
Ben Watson
Francestown NH
------------------------------
Subject: cider questions
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 10:13:43 -0400
Tim Watson (one of my kinfolk?) wrote:
> 1st year of doing cider. 1st batch in 5 gallon fermenting vessel and 99.00%
> cooking apples. Brew located in garden shed and ambient temp 10-15c. Started
> off great and then stopped. Added sugar and more yeast and went great for a
> few days but now stopped again. Coming to conclusion that no sugar left for
> yeast and temp too low. Are we correct.?
Andrew Lea and others will weigh in, I'm sure, but here's my groat's
worth of wisdom, based on what you've mentioned. It's difficult to
fully diagnose what's gone wrong without more information, like what
type of yeast you're using, etc. But I think both of your conclusions
are probably incorrect.
The fermentation temperature: If you're using a champagne or white wine
yeast (Pasteur champagne, Epernay II, etc.), the ambient temperature
shouldn't be a problem -- these yeasts ferment well at much lower temps
than those you mention. Same with ale, lager, or mead yeasts, in my
experience. The only problem might be if you used a yeast strain like
Pasteur Red, but even here I think the fermentation would just be
slower, not stuck.
The apples: Using cooking apples (presumably with a lot of acid)
shouldn't be a problem, because there should be plenty of sugar in the
fruit -- just masked by the high acidity. I would suggest adding a
yeast nutrient (thiamine, or vitamin B1) -- 1 tsp. per gallon -- to the
juice, either before fermentation, or maybe now, after racking the
juice into a new carboy or vessel. Although you say that the
fermentation started off okay, and then quit.
Sugar and yeast: You shouldn't really have needed to add any sugar,
unless you wanted to strengthen the final alcohol. Apples have plenty
of fermentable sugars. Finally, on the yeast front, how fresh was the
yeast you were using? Dehydrated yeast in the small 5 gm. foil packets
generally contain a lot of dead spores, even when it's "fresh". It's
always a good idea to create a yeast starter culture by boiling some
apple juice or cider, letting it cool to lukewarm temperature, and then
pitching the dry yeast into it in a large jar with a lid. Let it sit in
a warm place indoors for 3 hours or so, until the yeast gets off to a
good start. Then pitch the contents of the jar into your primary
fermentation vessel and stir it around to aerate well.
Did you leave the primary fermentation vessel open to the air during
the first vigorous fermentation? It's generally a good idea to keep the
cider aerated at this early stage, and the fact that the yeast is
producing a lot of CO2 will protect the cider from airborne infection.
At this point, as I say, I would rack the cider into a new container --
or into a pail and then back into the same vessel. Try to splash the
cider around the container as you siphon -- or simply pour the cider
from one container to the other. All of this will help aerate the cider
and hopefully wake up the yeast. And I would also add some yeast
nutrient -- like chicken soup, it couldn't hurt, and if the apples you
started with came from unfertilized trees, that might be one reason why
the yeast isn't working efficiently. (You could also hang a haunch of
beef in the cider, like they did in the old days, as a yeast nutrient
- -- but you'd need a pretty small haunch for a 5 gal. batch).
Good luck!
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1168
*************************
