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Cider Digest #1158
Subject: Cider Digest #1158, 26 August 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1158 26 August 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re:sealing w/ CO2? (tblists)
unsealed vessels (Derek Bisset)
CO2 blanketing ("McGonegal, Charles")
Re: CO2 (Warren Place)
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Subject: Re:sealing w/ CO2?
From: tblists <tblists@pshift.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 06:52:53 -0400
I often use CO2 to purge empty carboys, sometimes even bottles if I'm
feeling real anal. also use it to float over the top of a partially-filled
carboy, as well as in my oak barrel, but all of those seal pretty well. If
you're using an open-top or poorly sealed fermenter for your secondary I
would probably tend to add co2 (or better yet, Argon) to help things but
I'd look to the root of the problem and try to et the thing to seal. I've
used 55 gallon HDPE plastic barrels before, but only on their sides where
the curve of the container allows for me to fill right up to the seal and
minimize surface area contact. I would avoid using them vertically,
because the headspace is just too much.
That's my $0.02.
TB
>I recently read a brief article on the use of CO2 gas, floated over the top
>of fermenting cider, to act as a seal. I understand that this is how it was
>done in day's gone by, with success. I have a 40 gallon food grade plastic
>container with a non-air-tight lid that I'd like to try CO2 sealing, but I
>want cider, not vinegar.
Terence Bradshaw
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
bradshaw@pshift.com
(802)229-2004
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
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Subject: unsealed vessels
From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@shaw.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:51:49 -0700
Jan asked about using CO2 as a seal over fermenting cider and my
experience is against trying it .
I got a several stainless steel 40 litre kegs to use as pressure
vessels a few years ago. These had been used in a commercial operation
and the seals were in rather poor shape although I didn't realize it at
the time and filled them for a secondary fermentation . A couple of them
sealed with the CO2 given off during the secondary but a couple didn't
and gas leaked out over a period of monthe without my realizing. I would
have supposed that enough CO2 would have remained over the cider to
preserve it but these two became so oxidised as to be undrinkable . And
these were not loose fitting lids! When I put the lids on and tightened
them down by the screw system they used , they had appeared to seal as
well as the others .
The two kegs that developed pressure were good cider .
The spoiled kegs didn't go to vinegar as they might have done if
the lids had been completely loose .
I also have had the experience of comparing cider bottled with
sugar addition in plastic two litre pop bottles with the same cider in
glass . The pop bottles developed lots of CO2 pressure but there was a
distinct loss of quality after several months. It had a staleness to it
while the cider in glass still tasted fresh.
------------------------------
Subject: CO2 blanketing
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:48:15 -0500
Jan Davis asked about using a CO2 blanket as an oxygen barrier.
I can probably give as better response to this as a chemist (my profession)
than as a cidermaker (still an avocation :-).
Jan notes that CO2 above an _active_ fermentation does a good job of
displacing oxygen in the space above it. I have certainly observed this.
But I think the key is that the fermentation is actively evolving CO2 and
hence constantly displacing any air that diffuses into the container.
But the sticker is what happens once the fermentation stops. As the cider
becomes still, it may retain a lot of CO2 in solution - but with nothing to
disturb it, that's just where it stays - in solution.
As a chemist, I can say that in the lab we use argon as an inert blanket.
It's heavier than air, so it settles into place. And it has a density
different enough from air that it is somewhat resistant to dilution by
simple diffusion.
Even with an argon blanket, I would be reluctant to age cider more than a
very few months in a gas-leaky container.
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Re: CO2
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:53:38 -0700 (PDT)
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 J. K. Davis wrote:
> Dear Gentle Cider Makers,
> I recently read a brief article on the use of CO2 gas, floated over the top
> of fermenting cider, to act as a seal. I understand that this is how it was
> done in day's gone by, with success. I have a 40 gallon food grade plastic
> container with a non-air-tight lid that I'd like to try CO2 sealing, but I
> want cider, not vinegar.
Jan,
If the container isn't airtight, you'll have to periodically apply
come CO2 to the headspace of the container to keep out O2. Normal cooling
and heating of the room which the fermentor is in will draw in O2 and
expell CO2. I have no idea how often you'll have to flush the container
with gas, but I can tell you fronm my experience with white wine
production that oxidative browning doesn't take as long as I originally
thought.
Warren Place
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End of Cider Digest #1158
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