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Cider Digest #1139
Subject: Cider Digest #1139, 31 May 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1139 31 May 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Keeving (tblists)
Results of Cider Museum (Hereford) 2004 Competition (Cider Digest)
MLF in sparkling cider? ("Diane Gagnon")
Re: Apple flavor in cider, CD #1137, 2004-05-26 (Ross McKay)
Re: apple flavor and yeast choices (Michael Arighi)
Apple taste (Jack O Feil)
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Subject: Re: Keeving
From: tblists <tblists@pshift.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:35:04 -0500
>Terry Bradshaw, you mentioned in the last Cider Digest that you had
>performed a semi-succesfull keeve. I am curious as to what type of
>apples you used for this, specifically what types of rootstocks were
>they grown on and were they fertilized trees or abandoned ones. Enjoy!
>Jason MacArthur
The fruit consisted of a blend of Liberty, Nova Easy-Grow, Haralson,
Jonafree, and a dash of Redfield crab. They are from check plots in one of
my research orchards, and go unsprayed and under-fertilized. This year,
they have gotten no fertilizers at all, although a shot of Sul-Po-Mag might
not hurt. The trees are on M26 rootstock, planted in 1990. Aside from
annual pruning, they receive nothing but Champlain Valley sunshine, and
regular irrigation, as our site was an ancient sandy beach from the days
when the lake was a few hundred feet deeper. I have one more year to
squeeze their juice, as I'll be adding this block to my woodpile next spring.
After squeezing (no maceration period) I added 90 ppm sulfite and left the
juice in a plastic barrel, upright, for about a week outside last
October. Not having the right adjuncts (CaCl) on hand , I fudged by
adding gypsum (CaSO4) and potassium chloride/salt substitute (KCl) at 2 and
3 ounces to 60 gallons, respectively.Temps started out pretty warm but
cooled off within a day or two. I can't say I got the 'chapeau brun', but
the juice didn't froth with a fermentation, either. After 8 days with
little activity, I racked into the cellar; three carboys got this original
blend, the bourbon barrel got this blend plus a second squeezing of Pinova,
Stoke Red, Ashton Bitter, and Golden Hornet crab. This latter squeeze I
did on a hand press and sulfited the pulp while grinding. All batches were
inoculated with Wyeast 3466 cider yeast, as the natural ferment was taking
its time. Cellar temp stated out at 55F, but was down into the 40's and
even upper 30's before long. The barrel fermented out dry by the end of
January, the carboys took a little longer and stopped at 1.003 in March.
There is a real difference in the ciders. The barrel is pale straw in
color, acidic and tannic, bone dry, and maybe even a little grassy. It's
started to mellow with age, at least the stuff I have in bulk kegs. The
bottom half of the barrel went into carboys which still haven't cleared.
The kegs seem clearer when I pour a sample, but I suspect that the whole
batch in glass may appear cloudy.
The carboys are a rich amber in color, slightly sweet, appley, aromatic,
certainly less acidic and tannic. I like both, but wonder if the
proportions I have is what I'd really want (60 gallons of the dry 'Brit'
stuff, 15 gallons of the sweeter 'French' stuff).
My thoughts on what happened...I would think that the barrel would have
allowed more oxidation of the juice, but then again I sulfited the barrel
pretty heavily during storage, filling it with water and adding 1 pound
each of KMS and citric acid. Also the juice from the second squeeze was
sulfited during milling and had a very pale color going into the
barrel. The final bled in the barrel was 5:1 Squeeze 1 : Squeeze 2. My
only assumption is that the extra sulfite early on prevented
oxidation, and maybe there were some added nutrients in the juice since
these trees are fertilized, and the added N negated my 'semi-keeve'.
Anyway, that's what I've got to work with until this year's crop.
TB
Terence Bradshaw
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
bradshaw@pshift.com
(802)229-2004
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
------------------------------
Subject: Results of Cider Museum (Hereford) 2004 Competition
From: cider@talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 13:59:26 -0600 (MDT)
This was forwarded by a reader who thought you folks would be interested.
CIDER MUSEUM, HEREFORD
International Cider & Perry Competition 2004
The results of the International Cider & Perry Competition held at the
Cider Museum on Wednesday, 19th May 2004 are as follows. The judges were:
Mr. John Thatcher, Mr. Peter Mitchell, and Mr. Geoff Morris.
A total of 84 entries were received from 21 cidermakers from areas as
diverse as America, Somerset, The Three Counties, Devon & Cornwall.
OVERALL CHAMPION - Orchard's Cider & Perry Company
Class 1 - Dry Cider
First Westons
Second Ross-on-Wye Cider & Perry Company
Third Minchew's Real Cyder & Perry
Class 2 - Medium Cider
First Gwatkin Cider
Second Orchard's Cider & Perry Company
Third Ross-on-Wye Cider & Perry Company
Class 3 - Sweet Cider
First Minchew's Real Cyder & Perry
Second Oliver's Cider & Perry
Third Westons
Class 4 - Perry
First Gwatkin Cider
Second Minchew's Real Cyder & Perry
Third Westons
Class 5 - Single Variety Cider
First Gregg's Pit Cider & Perry
Second Gwatkin Cider
Third Minchew's Real Cyder & Perry
Class 6 - Bottle Fermented Cider or Perry
First Orchard's Cider & Perry Company
Second Burrow Hill Cider
Third Ashridge Cider
Class 7 - Best Presented Bottle of Cider or Perry
First Knights Cider
Second Ashridge Cider
Third Westons
------------------------------
Subject: MLF in sparkling cider?
From: "Diane Gagnon" <gagnond@endirect.qc.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 19:52:22 -0400
According to what I read about MLF,( Andrew Lea ) it should be
prevented, before bottling, with sulfite addition, but what about a
sparkling type ? I let my fermented cider stand for 5-6 weeks, then add
my dose of sugar and cap the bottles. Will a MLF occur after this
re-fermentation ? In other words, can a MLF occur in a sparkling cider ?
If so any ways to prevent it ?
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Apple flavor in cider, CD #1137, 2004-05-26
From: Ross McKay <rosko@zeta.org.au>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 11:47:11 +1000
Peter Johnson wrote:
>Has anyone been successful in retaining an apple flavor in their cider? My
>cider seems to ferment most to all of the apple flavor out of the final
>product. I have tried champagne, Epernay, Cotes des Blancs, Nottingham,
>Windsor Ale, and Doric yeast with varying degrees of dryness but none
>particularly had an apple flavor. Any assistance or suggestions would be
>greatly appreciated.
My truly limited experience tells me that two things play the greatest
part here: fruit variety, and yeast variety.
Most eating apples (around here, at least) taste mostly of sugar.
Fermenting removes that, so what flavour will be left? Bugger all! And
so I have found with fermenting the average pasteurised juices available
in the supermarkets here.
Once I found an orchard where I can get non-eating varieties (or at
least, not just dessert / sweet apples), my ciders got more character.
As for yeast, I hear that allowing native yeasts produces the best
product, although I have yet to try this. I use Lalvin wine yeasts, and
my preferred so far is D-47. I tried EC-1118 twice, and found it too
severe (subjective, I know, but I'm no expert!). Perhaps if I tried it
again with better fruit, I might like its results better.
And as other have said, why should cider taste like apples? Many wines
don't taste like grapes. We have removed the sugars, it will taste
different. If you want it to taste sweeter, add some fresh juice to your
glass at serving time (as my wife does)!
cheers,
Ross.
- --
"It's not the right time to be sober,
Now that the idiots have taken over" - NOFX
------------------------------
Subject: Re: apple flavor and yeast choices
From: Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 21:47:50 -0700
On the subject of retaining apple flavor & some other thoughts:
In the last months, I'm seeing what appears to be a consensus that the
most interesting results in cider seem to come with allowing natural
yeasts to take their course, perhaps with a light SO2 prep to discourage
the weak and leave the strong. However, there also seems to be some
consensus that this has rather inconsistent results, which is about what
I'd expect, since you may or may not get the same batch of (wild) yeasts
twice.
The consistency of the reports of wild yeast's superiority over
cultured, over the widely spaced geographic area represented on this
list, makes me think there's something there.
This leads me to some wonderings. If the wild yeast from a particularly
successful batch were saved, then used as the innoculant for the next
batch, wouldn't this be even better than dependence on happenstance?
Has anyone tried to save some of the wild yeasts that produced
particularly appealing results? It shouldn't be difficult--I know home
beer brewers have often scavenged particularly desirable yeasts (e.g.,
from some of the unusual Belgian beers) to use in their own brews. I've
done some myself, with beer, and shouldn't think it would be beyond most
home cidermakers. The usual lab method is wort agar slants, done in
Pyrex test tubes, so they can be flame sterilized, then the samples
taken with a nichrome wire loop, likewise flame sterilized (and
cooled!), dipped in the yeast, then scratched across the slants, with
the result then stoppered with cotton. The results were then "capped"
with tinfoil and frozen. The result was viable for several years (I used
it).
It's been some years since I did it, and I realize I don't remember a
few of the steps fully, but I could still check the technique with my
original "source" (my 91 year old Dad) who was a food technologist for
many years, if anyone was interested.
One recommendation would be to use the yeast at the bottom on the
secondary fermenter, rather than the primary. The primary, IME, has so
much crud, you're likelier to get purer yeast at the second racking.
In fact, if you make sparkling (as I usually do), you could probably
even save it off the bottom of the bottle, after the final fermentation.
You wouldn't want to wait too long, or it might have autolyzed to the
point there's little viable yeast left (autolysis, as I understand it,
is also one of the sources of some of the yeasty, toasty flavors you get
in, for example, vintage champagne. But it's death on yeast--literally).
- --
Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
Oakland, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Apple taste
From: Jack O Feil <feilorchards@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 09:36:30 -0700
There is a point in the fermentation when the cider has a delightful and
refreshing taste, down to around two Brix,I don't know how to describe it
but it is like nothing else I've experienced. The problem is how to stop
the process at that point, put it into a bottle to retain the tiny
bubbles and flavor.
Jack
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End of Cider Digest #1139
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