Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1147
Subject: Cider Digest #1147, 6 July 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1147 6 July 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Bottles and capping of cider (Benjamin Watson)
book revision (Benjamin Watson)
Bottles and capping of cider ("eddy hefford")
crown caps (Dick Dunn)
on the shelf? (Dick Dunn)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Bottles and capping of cider
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 06:16:25 -0400
Just a quick note about champagne bottles. In my experience, many
champagne bottles will not take a crown cap. The difference is usually
characterized as American champagne (will take a crown cap) vs.
European champagne (will not take a crown cap). At least I think that's
right. But in any case it's an oversimplification -- I have to look at
every champagne bottle I scrounge to make sure it has a lip that will
take a cap.
On a related note, I notice some cider producers, like Terry and Judith
Maloney at West County Winery have switched from crown caps to
"mushroom corks" and wire cages. I suppose this is a marketing issue,
to make the product look "classier", like an imported French cider.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: book revision
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 06:31:29 -0400
I'm probably opening another can of worms here, but I would value the
opinions of CD readers as I start thinking about revising my book,
"Cider, Hard and Sweet" (Countryman Press, 1999).
I have pestered my publisher long enough for him to agree to
considering a second edition. And it's long since time to start
updating the book, as I have learned a lot more about cider in the past
5 years, through cidermakers and forums like this one.
I won't presume that everyone has read my book, but for those who have,
please feel free to contact me off-line at bwatson@worldpath.net, and
let me know what topics you think I should address in a new edition of
the book.
Among the ideas I had were to devote more attention to perry, to add
information on ice cider, and of course to greatly expand the resources
section. Also, I'm thinking of including an "advanced cidermaking"
chapter -- the original book was focused squarely on the newbie, and I
still want to present cider as an easy, cheap, and simple thing to get
into. This would probably include info. on the pros and cons of aging
cider in oak.
Any critiques or comments cheerfully will be cheerfully accepted.
Thanks,
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
bwatson@worldpath.net
------------------------------
Subject: Bottles and capping of cider
From: "eddy hefford" <eddyhefford@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 10:15:47 +0000
My observation on bottling cider in champagne bottles with crown caps is
that there is a much higher rate of failure than is the case with beer
bottles. I usually do a few hundred bottles a year and found that I would
lose 5 - 10 % a year from caps blowing off and the occasional cracked
bottle, since switching to exclusively beer bottles I have yet to lose one.
Champagne bottles take a larger size of cap and are not as finely moulded
around the lip and so are harder to seal, at least usiing a hand bench
press. Another point is that they weigh significantly more than beer bottles
for a given amount of liquid. So you can see why I don't use them but then I
am not trying to sell the cider.
Eddy Hefford
London
------------------------------
Subject: crown caps
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:28:10 -0600 (MDT)
Crown caps and "champagne" (sparkling wine) bottles: There are two sizes
of bottle "head" (don't know what it's really called, so I'm making it up
for the moment 'cause that's where the "crown" goes). One matches the
standard beer bottle; the other is larger. If you try to put an American
crown cap on a "French" sparkling-wine bottle, it's quite likely that either
it won't seal or it will crack the glass--the European is larger. You need
different caps -and- a different die on the capper.
It's amusing, because it really does come down to American/"French" (it may
be more generally European for the latter)...to the point that champagne
from Piper-Heidsieck, Mumm, or Louis Roederer will have the larger French
lip even while Piper-Sonoma, Mumm Napa, or Roederer Estate (the
corresponding American branches of the SAME companies) will use the
American size. Beer bottles do seem to follow a single standard more
widely; at least Tomcat, Theakston's, Tooth's, and Tsing Tao all seem to
have the same gauge, that matching the American sparkling-wine bottle.
(I seem to recall that Belgian beers with just crown caps have the standard
crown size, but those with the belt-and-braces approach of a crown cap over
a cork [lambics] use the larger gauge.)
Why does a crown cap fit a champagne bottle anyway, since they're closed
with a "mushroom cork" (which isn't actually mushroom-shaped when it starts
out; it just gets squoze, well, except for the plastic ones of course, but
I digress...)? The crown-cap lip is used to cap the bottle while the wine
is being aged in the bottle and riddled. (Riddle: Why is it called
"riddling"?) The crown cap is there because it's cheap and it's easy to
remove during the disgorging process.
But as long as the sparkling-wine bottles are there (and manufactured in
very large quantities) why not use them for seriously sparkling ciders?
The folks who are looking at a custom cider-style bottle (ref Kristen
Jordan's article in the last digest) have found that the minimum run for
a bottle style is a staggeringly large number. So if you're doing cider,
if you're going to put carbonation in it, you don't just go down to the
local bottle-maker and order up fifty cases of custom glass. You go with
the sparkling-wine style (as some cidermakers do) or the bomber...pardon
me, the "Ambeer Legacy", style, as Westcott Bay does, per Richard's
explanation in the last digest.
What's the difference? If you're actually making champagne-style cider
with lots of carbonation, you want the heavier glass. If you're just
holding moderate carbonation . . . a lot of ciders are less carbonated
than beers . . . then the beer-type bottle makes way more sense because
it's smaller and only weighs about half as much. (An empty champagne
bottle weighs 20% more than its contents. A 22 oz (US) / 650 ml bottle
weighs 40% less than its contents.)
(another digression...In case you're wondering, related to carbonation--
and it's a reasonable question--No, the crown cap will NOT come off before
the bottle explodes. Not even close. BUT...a screw cap might have the
potential to protect its bottle by venting pressure or failing before the
glass does. I heard off-digest about such a design.)
Dick
------------------------------
Subject: on the shelf?
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:30:43 -0600 (MDT)
In the last CD, Richard Anderson <baylonanderson@rockisland.com> wrote:
> While Jan's post is about capping, But I think the issue is more about
> marketing than packaging. Why be on the wine shelf? True, on the plus side,
> price is better. On the down side do you want to be another product on a
> very crowded shelf? Worse yet your cider may end up with cheap fruit wine.
> Jan's quandary is real and echoes recent postings. The real issue is how do
> we get the consumer to head for the cider shelf!
Bottlecaps aside! Rich is trying to talk real substance. Good.
I think the problem at the moment is that there is not a cider shelf. So
you have two problems: How do you get to where there is such a place, and
what do you do in the meantime?
OK, back up a moment...this discussion is really about the US, or at least
NOT about some other countries. When there's a cider section in your local
Tesco or Sainsbury's (US folks: think Safeway or Kroger) then it's a
different world from hoping that the one large liquor store way down the
road might have a couple ciders.
As to how you get to where there's a cider shelf in the store, one simple
point is that you just need enough producers to earn a place. What's the
minimum? I look around in our stores; I think maybe it took five meads
(identifiably different) in one of the larger stores to get a section that
could be labeled "mead". (In turn, one of the barriers to that, in the
US, is inter-state distribution laws.) How long will that take? I'd guess
3 years at the inside. (Am I being pessimistic? optimistic?)
As to what you do in the meantime...where do you want to be in the store,
given that you can't just invent your own choice? You might be able to
choose from the following:
beer (probably separate sections for generic/industrial and craft)
wine
fruit wine (Rich's dread, and I agree with his view)
wine coolers (which are actually beer-like)
distilled spirits (many sections--gin, vodka, whiskey, scotch...)
"new age" beverages ("Hooch", "hard lemonade", "twisted tea", various
[sorry, but it's the term] "chick drinks")
perhaps an industrial-cider section next to new-age
OK, I think you can't hang with any of the spirits; distillation sets
them apart. It would be nice to get away from the wine coolers and "new
age" (transl.: just-get-drunk) categories. How close do you want to be
to the industrial ciders...given the company they keep? Note here, for
comparison/contrast, that real wines and wine coolers don't associate with
one another. By extension, there's no need for Westcott Bay and West County
to be next to Woodchuck and Strongbow, any more than Boone's Farm and
Bartles&James need to be next to Ridge and Acacia.
Seems to me that if you don't get your first choice (a cider section of
your own), your second-bests are with the craft beer or the boutique wine.
Packaging and "market positioning" (ugh!) may determine that.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1147
*************************
