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Cider Digest #1138
Subject: Cider Digest #1138, 28 May 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1138 28 May 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
boron deficiency in perry pear? ("chris horn")
Apple Flavour in Cider (Andrew Lea)
Re: Cider Digest #1137, 26 May 2004 (Lee Passey)
RE: Cider Digest #1137, 26 May 2004 ("J. K. Davis")
Subject : Apple flavor in cider (from Peter Jonhson ) ("Denis Gendron")
Re: Apple flavor in cider (Dick Dunn)
Apple character (Ken Schramm)
Keeving (Jason MacArthur)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: boron deficiency in perry pear?
From: "chris horn" <agent_strangelove@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:14:55 -0700
I have a young (grafted 2003 on OHxF 333) Blakney Red perry pear in the
orchard below the house... This year when it's putting out leaves, they
come out fine and then start to get a lumpy pattern in the middle of the
leave that then spreads. The lumps cover the leave up to about 1/8" from
the edge and the lumps are 1/16" diameter. The leaves stay green and don't
fall.... I took one off and sent it to the county extention agent to see
what the deal was. He came back with the fact that he thought that it was a
Boron deficiency. I don't know if I buy this... All of the rest (16) of
the perry pears down there don't have this same problem. That is the only
Blakney Red.... I have never had my soil tested but all of the rest of the
apples and pears on the property do just fine....
Any thoughts or had anyone else run across this?
Thanks
Chris Horn
Scappoose Oregon USA
"I still say a church steeple with a lightening rod on top shows a lack of
confidence."
-Doug McLeod
------------------------------
Subject: Apple Flavour in Cider
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 18:09:43 +0100
Peter Johnson wrote:
>
> Has anyone been successful in retaining an apple flavor in their cider? My
> cider seems to ferment most to all of the apple flavor out of the final
> product. I have tried champagne, Epernay, Cotes des Blancs, Nottingham,
> Windsor Ale, and Doric yeast with varying degrees of dryness but none
> particularly had an apple flavor.
Permit me to be slightly contentious and ask why cider should be
expected to taste *of* apples? We don't expect beer to taste *of* barley
nor wine to taste *of* grapes!. In general the original flavours of
any fermentable base are driven away or metabolised during fermentation,
and are replaced by new flavours derived by the yeast acting on
non-flavourful precursors from the fruit. Some of these may be the same
as, or closely related to, those which are lost during fermentation but
it doesn't follow at all that a cider will taste *of* the fruit from
which it came.
Having said all that, it is evident that different yeasts give different
results on the same juices, and indeed that certain cider apples (and
grapes) do give consistently characteristic tastes and aromas.
Personally I have long ago given up using any cultured yeasts for my
ciders, relying instead on a 'wild' mixed microflora succession steered
with just a little sulphite. It works for me and gives much more
'cidery' (if not 'appley') flavours. It also gets away from the
excessive dry bitterness (chemistry unknown!) which I personally find
unpleasant in cider made with cultured wine yeasts (especially of the
'Champagne' bayanus type). Recently I did a paired tasting with some
people here in the UK using a very aromatic apple (Stoke Red) fermented
with Bayanus and 'wild' yeast for comparison. The wild one won hands
down. It was not entirely fair since there was an age difference in the
samples too but it was an eye-opener and I will hope to repeat it more
systematically in a later season.
A final point is the effect of malo-lactic fermentation (MLF)., It is
generally accepted (I think) in the wine world that the characteristic
buttery flavour of Chardonnay does not develop until MLF. It is also
generally accepted that after MLF all 'fruitiness' is lost - hence white
wine makers wanting to retain that character try to ensure MLF does not
occur. The same applies to ciders. If you want fruity I would suggest
trying a wild yeast fermentation and sulphite well at bottling to stop
the MLF.
Good Luck!
Andrew
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1137, 26 May 2004
From: Lee Passey <lee@novomail.net>
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:47:48 -0600
cider-request@talisman.com wrote:
>Subject: Apple flavor in cider
>From: "Peter Johnson" <johnson_peter@sbcglobal.net>
>Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 11:33:00 -0500
>
>Has anyone been successful in retaining an apple flavor in their cider? My
>cider seems to ferment most to all of the apple flavor out of the final
>product. I have tried champagne, Epernay, Cotes des Blancs, Nottingham,
>Windsor Ale, and Doric yeast with varying degrees of dryness but none
>particularly had an apple flavor. Any assistance or suggestions would be
>greatly appreciated.
>
>Thank you,
>Peter Johnson
>
>
I'm new to cider making, and not having any producing trees yet, I have
started making cider from juices obtained elsewhere. This last weekend I
invited a small group of home (beer) brewers over to taste some of my
experiments from the winter. The tasting was blind, and included the
only three commercial ciders available in Utah: Ace, Hornsby's Draft
and Hardcore. I decanted the commercial ciders into my own bottles, and
presented them as my own.
The results were interesting, if not surprising.
The three commercial ciders quickly claimed the last three spots. Some
people said that they would rather drink water than the Hornsby cider.
Ace was the preferred commercial cider, seeming clean and bright with no
off flavors. This was my first attempt at brewing, so I attribute the
fact that all four of my experiments were unanimously deemed superior to
commercial cider to be more a statement about the quality of commercial
ciders than about my own skills as a brewer.
Three of my four experiments were a blend of 50% Knudsen's organic apple
juice (pasteurized) and 50% local farm apple juice (unpasteurized, a
mixture of Red Delicious and Jonathan). To each batch I added a 12 oz.
can of frozen apple juice concentrate, just to bring the sugar levels
up. Batches 1 and 2 were fermented with English Cider yeast (WLP775) and
batches 3 and 4 were fermented with Sweet Mead/Wine yeast (WLP720). If
anything, the Sweet Mead/Wine yeast seemed to produce a drier product
than the English Cider yeast. All of the batches were fermented in my
cellar at a fairly constant 65 degrees Fahrenheit.
To my second batch of cider I added a bag of raisins to the juice during
fermentation. This added a distinct "grapey" flavor to the resulting
cider. Some people liked the result, and others did not. Those people
who liked it _really_ liked it, and those people who didn't like it
_really_ disliked it; there didn't seem to be much middle ground.
The consensus pick for the best cider was my very last batch. This batch
had a very pleasant and noticeable "appley" flavor despite being fairly
dry. In this last batch I used 100% unpasteurized local farm juice,
which had already started foaming and bulging the plastic jugs it was
stored in. Rather than adding new yeast, I poured the juice on top of
the yeast (Sweet Mead) left in the fermenter after having racked off the
previous batch.
Clearly, I did not control the variables sufficiently to be able to draw
any real conclusions from my experiments, but I hypothesize that the
more pronounced "appley" flavor of the last batch is due either to the
use of fresh farm juice, with a higher percentage of the aromatic Red
Delicious, or to the possibility that the fermentation was due in some
larger extent to the wild yeast that had already gone to work on the
juice. I seem to recall reading on the web somewhere about a more
controlled experiment done in Canada testing the effects of different
yeasts and which concluded that wild yeasts produced the best flavors,
despite being somewhat more prone to failure. I plan on testing these
hypotheses in the fall.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1137, 26 May 2004
From: "J. K. Davis" <andiroba@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 16:47:38 -0400
I'm seeking a automatic (vice manual) apple mill/press to make batches of
farm hard cider. Does anyone have any recommendations where I can find one?
BTW, I took the Washington State University-sponsored week long cider making
course, and it was terrific. It covered the whole range of cider-making. I
now feel confident that I can make a wholesome, quality product.
Jan Davis
andiroba@hotmail.com
------------------------------
Subject: Subject : Apple flavor in cider (from Peter Jonhson )
From: "Denis Gendron" <gagnond@endirect.qc.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:37:29 -0400
I have tried for many years also ,to get an obvious apple flavor into my
"dry cider" experimenting with apples varietys,and yeasts strains, with
fair results but not to my satisfaction. Last year (03) trials were more
succesfull, due to a miscalculation with sugar addition upon
pre-bottling fermentation ( sparkling type). I added twice the amount
recommended, which resulted in a sparkling liquid and a remnant of sugar
I guess...increasing the taste quite a bit. I used a centrifugal juice
extractor, and apples with heavy odoriferant bouquet , golden delicious,
golden russet, jonathan which must have contributed to this relative
success too. I never added real juice ,or essences, technics commonly
utilysed, with pertinent results, looking for a traditionnal real 100%
home made cider. Denis Gendron gagnond@endirect.qc.ca
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Apple flavor in cider
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 23:50:09 -0600 (MDT)
"Peter Johnson" <johnson_peter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Has anyone been successful in retaining an apple flavor in their cider? My
> cider seems to ferment most to all of the apple flavor out of the final
> product...
The responses to this generally fall into the following categories:
* That's normal! Fermentation destroys the compounds that give the
specific apple-fruit taste.
* Why do you want your cider to taste like apples? Do you expect wine
to taste like grapes?
Note wrt the first point, IF fermentation goes to completion, you're going
to lose the specific apple taste (although you'll get tastes reminiscent of
the fruit). That's just the way it works. But that suggests a couple of
approaches which are used. The first is to convince the fermentation to
grind to a halt before it finished fermenting out--e.g., the French
approach of starving the yeast of nutrients. The second is to let the
cider ferment out completely (no residual sugar), then stabilize it to
prevent a renewed fermentation, then "back-sweeten" with juice. Hold
some of your juice in reserve and don't let it ferment (sulfite and chill,
freeze, whatever), then add it back after fermentation is done, and be
sure the result, by whatever combination of measures, won't re-start
fermenting after you bottle it. (Yes, that gives you a cider with some
sweetness left in it. But I'm guessing that if you're looking to have
some fruit character, the sweetness won't be a problem.)
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Apple character
From: Ken Schramm <schramk@mail.resa.net>
Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 20:30:42 -0400
Peter Johnson asked about apple character, and in order of apple
character predominance, my best ciders have been fermented:
1) Spontaneously, with the requisite instability and inconsistent results
2) With D-47, the Lalvin Cotes de Blancs strain, which keeps a decent
amount of apple, but can also add some citrus notes
3) With 71B-1122, which stays apple-y, but pushed a little buttery character.
Your mileage may vary. Hardly authoritative, but one data point.
Blends of primarily N. Spy and Jonathon, with a few Golden D's, some
Spygolds, and a few Calville Blancs, Kingston Blacks and Yarlington
Mills. I avoid the Champagne strains.
Good luck,
Ken Schramm
Troy, MI
------------------------------
Subject: Keeving
From: Jason MacArthur <rotread@localnet.com>
Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 07:10:54 -0400
Terry Bradshaw, you mentioned in the last Cider Digest that you had
performed a semi-succesfull keeve. I am curious as to what type of
apples you used for this, specifically what types of rootstocks were
they grown on and were they fertilized trees or abandoned ones. Enjoy!
Jason MacArthur
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1138
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