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Cider Digest #1135
Subject: Cider Digest #1135, 15 May 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1135 15 May 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
grazing (Derek Bisset)
Re: Cider Digest #1134, 12 May 2004 (Steury & Noel)
Re: Cider Digest #1134, 12 May 2004 ("Bill Rhyne")
Safe juice etc ("mark")
BJCP cider styles (slight addendum) (Cider Digest)
Re: DickDunns ramble on safety ("squeeze")
a couple of queries ("Darlene Hanson / Darcy Wardrop")
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Subject: grazing
From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@shaw.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 23:23:57 -0700
Can anyone clarify the time factor for contaminants in juice Dick refers
to?. I have heard a statement from health officials (Washington State) that
time is not a factor with e.coli infection of juice because the bacteria
multiplication does not take place in the juice ( that is why it is so
hard to identify because so few may be present and they don't multiply)
but the multiplication takes place in gut of the ingesting animal . So
I could have juice with a very low infection rate that one child drinks
from my press with no ill effects and another child has a glass of the
same juice and is devastated because a small number of e.coli are present
and multiply very quickly in the environment of the child's gut.
I have a small orchard of cider apples with deer droppings present
and the most recent information I have is that any apples I pick up from
the grass with these droppings present may be contaminated no matter the
time factor . The difference between apple juice and orange juice is that
the apple can be contaminated internally through its blossom end opening
contacting the droppings while an orange blossom end is closed and there
can only be surface contamination which can be washed off .
I realize that this is not an issue with cider because fermentation
has its own sterilizing effects.
My understanding is that Fall Fairs and other apple events with a
tradition of fresh juice tasting have been shut down by Odwalla and only
a clear understanding of the exact nature of the problem may allow juice
tasting to continue in any form . Clarifying how real the risk is matters
so that we can factor out bureaucratic and legalistic concerns . Should
I give this juice to my granddaughter?
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1134, 12 May 2004
From: Steury & Noel <steurynoel@mail.potlatch.com>
Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 05:42:39 -0700
Subject: E. coli
From: Tim Steury
Regarding animals and their byproducts in the orchard, of course fresh
juice is a concern. However, perhaps the most important study, to
cidermakers, of the last few years is one by Smemanchek and
Golden,"Survival of Escherichia Coli O157:H7 during Fermentation of Apple
Cider," Journal of Food Protection, Vol. 59, No. 12, 1996, pp. 1256-1259.
In the study, "Populations of E. coli O157:H7 were reduced from 6.4 log
CFU/ml in fermenting cider after 3 days at 20 degrees C.... Results of
this study indicate that alcoholic fermentation of fresh cider is an
effective means of destroying this pathogen."
Diane Noel, Tim Steury, and David Steury
1021 McBride Road
Potlatch, ID 83855 USA
208.875.0804
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1134, 12 May 2004
From: "Bill Rhyne" <rhyne@wli.net>
Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 08:57:56 -0700
RE: Odwalla and safe juice
One of the issues to consider that is not discussed much regarding the
former Odwalla problem was an organizational issue. Odwalla had gone public
and they were growing rapidly. In order to meet the demand for their
product, they bought the Dinuba plant and assumed a whole network of apple
suppliers from the area. My conjecture is that they did not have enough
trained buyers to educate the suppliers as to the specifications of the
apples that were to be supplied (harvesting, growing, cleaning procedures)
and they did not have enough internal controls and new training for the
newly acquired employees at the Dinuba plant as to Odwalla's vision,
mission, and operational procedures. To summarize, they grew too fast in a
short period to maintain quality control so there was a failure. To their
credit, they reacted correctly to the situation to prevent any more harm but
the damage was already done.
When we (Rhyne Cyder) started selling and promoting our own hard cider, we
spent a lot of time answering questions from customers about Odwalla,
pasteurization, our fermentation process, and so on. People still think that
we are selling apple juice, not cider, so the public still needs lots of
education with regard to hard cider and apple juice.
With regarding to unpasteurized apple juice, I have no problem drinking
unpasteurized apple juice as I used to drink it as I was crushing apples for
test batches. It was like a liquid meal that quenched my thirst and gave me
new energy. But I had picked the apples, washed the apples and the crushing
equipment, and so I could verify the cleanliness of the process. There was
no middleman between me drinking the juice and the selecting of the apples.
For those serious beerdrinkers out there, you know when you visit a new bar
that you may be a little leary of drinking the stuff on tap as you do not
know how fresh the keg is, how clean the lines are, or if the CO2 cannister
is working correctly so you order a bottled beer. Once you have established
that the bar maintains their equipment and the beer is served fresh by
trained bar staff, then you feel more confident in drinking beer on tap.
With unpasteurized apples or any fresh meal prepared in a restaurant, there
is this variability due to the training of the staff and the organizational
procedures to ensure consistency and quality, as well as the good clean raw
materials. When customers have a bad experience, that suggests that there
was a break down in the system somewhere.
Going back to the Odwalla issue, I think that the problem was partly due to
the fact that the plant was new in their system and their processing quality
control system had not been implemented fully so there was a failure.
So, whatever you do, wash those apples.
And there you have my two cents!!
Aloha,
Bill Rhyne
------------------------------
Subject: Safe juice etc
From: "mark" <mark@thealchemystudio.com>
Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:44:58 -0500
Well said, Dick. But then I would expect that attention to cleanliness from a
man from Hygiene, CO!
Sorry, could not resist!
Mark
------------------------------
Subject: BJCP cider styles (slight addendum)
From: cider@talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 18:04:46 -0600 (MDT)
I was insufficiently attentive to a recent digest in which Richard and/or
Susan Anderson commented:
> ...Dick Dunn and his team deserve a thank you from the cider
> community for the excellent job on rewriting the BJCP Cider Guidelines.
"The team" included Gary Awdey, Gloria Franconi, and Drew Zimmerman. Drew
and Gary will be familiar to the readers of the Cider Digest for their
articles here, and you can well imagine that they helped a lot to keep me
from getting too stupid too often.
Gloria needs some introduction: She has a key--and difficult!--role, as
she has worked closely with the BJCP, has sponsored cider workshops, and
most importantly has been involved with BJCP cider judging and judge
training. Inasmuch as the new styles are a substantial change from
the old styles, Gloria has worked to address the difficult questions of
"how do we get there from here?"--i.e., how do you get judges ready to
deal with various new styles; how do you get the competitors calibrated?
It's one thing to lay out some idealized set of categories; it's quite
another to figure out how to move the reality of an existing competition
program toward them.
In addition to that, naturally we drew advice from "the usual gang of
suspects".
I expect that the new style guidelines will have a trial-by-fire over
the next couple years (effectively 2005-6) as their somewhat idealistic
nature comes face-to-face with the reality of competitions.
- ---
Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: DickDunns ramble on safety
From: "squeeze" <squeeze@mars.ark.com>
Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:55:36 -0700
I won't follow point for point, but will add my 2 bits, especially that
whatever bad you heard about Odwalla was prolly right - but the simple fact
that they were selling unpasteurized juice via a 3rd party distribution
network, to retailers over thousands of miles should have been an alarm
bell to anyone - I sell 'raw juice' every fall, and would never put that
juice in a store under the control of minimum wage employees and conditions
which can vary by the day - my juice [usually 1st press of the day] goes
straight from the press to a colder than average fridge, and if it's not
sold in 36 hours it's pasteurized or fermented for vinegar - I'm suprised
Odwalla is still in business! it doesn't take an actual failure of
refrigeration to allow more rapid bacterial growth, just the normal
exposure to the warmer temps between the factory and the truck, and the
truck and the stores' stock room, where product might sit for 15 minutes or
2 hours or . . . , and then maybe being in those open front 'cold' cases,
etc - liquids take longer than most think to cool, but warm again fairly
quickly - the "findings" in that case where exactly what we in the biz up
here expected - supposedly caused by a sloppy organic farmer who grazed
a *herd* of cows in the orchard, so Odwalla wasn't directly blamed
as to the difference in yeast or bacterial activity at low temps, I'd doubt
there'd be much difference - I've had some very nice fermentations happen
in the fridge, but other times I've had juice sit in the fridge for weeks
w/o fermenting!! and I wouldn't be the least bit convinced that a
beginning fermentation would stop O157H7 activity, tho' it might be
considered a marker for "juice gone bad" by home users - the main problem
nowadays is the virulence of the particular O157H7 e-coli strain that
caused Odwallas problem - an extremely small initial load can multiply even
under 'good' refrigeration, and it only requires a small load to cause
serious illness, particularly in the very young and old - both high
consuming groups when it comes to apple juice - my main objection to
extended periods in the fridge, is that juice that's been refrigerated in
plastic quickly tastes like plastic - 10 days is about double what should
be the expiry period, and even then, I wouldn't call 5 day old juice
"fresh"!
traditionally apple juice was thought to be too high acid to have bacterial
problems, and now O157H7 at least has shown that to be incorrect in the
juice from current commercial varieties - I've always thought the reason I
haven't had any trouble w/ bacteria [other than due care] is that I use a
very high % of 'heritage varieties' w/ a higher acid level than the large
juice plants who normally make juice that's entirely one variety like
Goldens, Spartans or Macs, w/ a generous helping of Red Delicious
I pick about 20 standard trees at one property where the owners raise 2 or
3 beef cattle each year, and those cattle graze 2 of the 3 fields w/ apples
- - I haven't noticed any real difference in the fruit from the ungrazed
field, and I eat apples from the ground in all 3 areas, especially if it's
a Gravenstein! :-) all it takes is personal attention and reasonable
care and cleanliness - cows don't eat apples that have fallen in cow pattys
and I don't either!!
Bill <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/>
------------------------------
Subject: a couple of queries
From: "Darlene Hanson / Darcy Wardrop" <d_hanson@oberon.ark.com>
Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 19:58:15 -0700
The other day I opened a bottle of cider , produced by the Ravens Ridge
cidery in kelowna BC. After having a glass of the still cider I put the rest
back in the fridge for later . The next day I had the rest. It was noticebly
smoother and you could taste the apple flavour much better. I have noticed
this same effect with other ciders and wines. I have heard of letting red
wine breath but is there any precedent for serving cider this way?
Today I ran two stalks of rhubarb through my juicer and combined it with
lemon juice, water, and sugar to make a rhubarb lemonade. It was
faboulous,with a full body and a fruity flavour. It set me to wondering if
anyone has tried adding rhubarb to apple juice to make a rhubarb cider?
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End of Cider Digest #1135
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