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Cider Digest #1155
Subject: Cider Digest #1155, 10 August 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1155 10 August 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1154, 6 August 2004 High acid ciders ("John C. Campbell ...)
Maturation of cider (Andrew Lea)
Pectic issues (Andrew Lea)
Keeve picture (Andrew Lea)
"Apples losing genetic diversity" news item (Peter G)
Re:Yarlington Mill fireblight-susceptible? (tblists)
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1154, 6 August 2004 High acid ciders
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:44:34 -0400
I have to second that observation ... whether it's pure 'cider' or chapatalized
"apple wine" ... I am constantly astounded by the marked improvement ...
dramatic improvement that happens after a 3 month / 6 month 'rest' in the bottle
or cask
jccampb
:
> Subject: high acid cider
> From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 09:43:10 -0700
>
> (snip)
>
> My ciders typically improve dramatically around the first of September, and
> continue to improve for a few months. After that they seem to
> stabilize. I've only had one that actually got worse over time (the FYN
> got too strong).
------------------------------
Subject: Maturation of cider
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:06:49 +0100
Tim Bray wrote:
>> Will high acid
>>ciders 'mellow' with age and, if so, will encouraging
>>a malo-lactic fermentation help?
>
> Yes, and yes. If you didn't sulfite, you might expect a natural MLF to
> occur (although it really should have occurred by now, unless the cider has
> been stored cold). Even if you do not get MLF, I would expect the
> sharpness to mellow somewhat, if it is only malic acid.
>
> My ciders typically improve dramatically around the first of September, and
> continue to improve for a few months. After that they seem to
> stabilize.
I'm really pleased to hear you say that Tim. My recent experience with
'wild yeast' fermentation followed by MLF is just the same. In fact, it
makes me wonder why so many cider competitions (at least in the UK) are
held in May when 'real' ciders are nowhere near at their best. Even our
cider tasting day at Long Ashton was always held in June. It makes me
think that the traditional timings are based on other aspects of the
agricultural year and have no real relation to cider quality. Either
that, or it's the fact that much poorly made 'traditional' cider in
wooden casks starts to go badly acetic in the summer so the spring was
the best (or the 'least worst') time to taste it. With any luck it
would be in active MLF at that time so it would be a wee bit 'petillant'
or 'spritzig' too (why do we have no proper English word for that
condition? - 'sparkling' is too ambiguous nowadays). Anyone else have
an opinion on this?
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Pectic issues
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 14:32:23 +0100
Scott wrote:
>>Here is a summary of my understanding of the chemistry at this point:
>>The PME demethylates the pectin chain, so the long chains now have
>>multiple negatively-charged sites on them. Some of these sites will
>>bind with nitrogen-containing compounds, and other sites on the same
>>molecule (?) will bind with Ca ions. The resulting "salt" will be less
>>soluble and so the whole big molecule will come out of solution, thus
>>precipitating nitrogenous compounds as a side effect. Is this
>>accurate? I also understand why more pectin in the fruit will give a
>>better result: more pectin means more anions means more nitrogenous
>>compounds bind and are precipitated.
Spot on, there! Note that the reason calcium is so effective is that
it's divalent so it can link across two long chains. That's how the 3-D
gel network is set up. A monovalent ion wouldn't work. A trivalent ion
like aluminium works even better! A key extra point is that the
macromolecular gel "salt" floats to the top of the vessel, buoyed up by
carbon dioxide bubbles from the slow incipient fermentation (French
factory keeving uses introduced nitrogen bubbles). Then you rack the
juice from underneath the floating gel.
You also asked about doing this with grapes. I've never heard of it and
I don't think it will work. First, grapes contain far less pectin than
apples. Second, grapes contain about ten times as much free amino
nitrogen as apples. So it would have to be a truly massive keeve to be
effective - and I don't believe it could cope.
The only other food system I know of where this concept is or has been
used is in the spontaneous traditional clarification of lime juice in
Dominica. The PME's in the juice do just the same job as in apple but
here it *is* clarification which is the objective. I understand the
process took several months but resulted in a brilliant clear juice.
There is no yeast fermentation since the pH is so low, and hence the
pectin drops to the bottom of the vat (you can observe this with
fresh-pressed orange juice at home too if you keep it for a few days).
However, I believe this traditional process is now obsolete since added
enzymes have replaced it.
>>In fact, it suggests that pectin
>>powder could be added to low-pectin juice to increase the amount of
>>nitrogen removed by a keeve.
>
Hmm - an interesting suggestion. There are many forms of commercial
pectin powder depending on the fruit they come from and the way they've
been processed. So you'd have to be quite careful which pectin to choose.
Shawn wrote:
> Instead of adding a pectin powder would a longer maceration (maturing
> the ground apples before pressing the juice) time work?
Yup that definitely works. If you leave the milled pulp for 24 hours
before pressing, more pectin diffuses out from between the cell walls
where it lives and ends up as 'soluble' in the juice. Also it helps if
the apples themselves are fully mature and rich in soluble pectin
already. The accessibility of pectin changes a lot as apples mature in
store off the tree. According to the French literature only fully mature
mid- to late-season apples are suitable for keeving. Also they
recommend an SG greater than 1.055, which would help the 'chapeau' to
float better.
> Does anyone know the effect maceration has on tannin levels in the
> juice? It seems that tannins would also leech out of the skin as well
> as pectin.
The skin to flesh ratio is actually quite low and it's unlikely that
significant tannins leach out of the skin, though they can be extracted
with alcohol. What does happen during maceration is more oxidation and
polymerisation of the tannins back onto the pulp so the amounts in the
final juice tend to diminish. The actual extent depends on the degree of
aeration. Tightly packed apple pulp goes very brown on the surface but
can be quite colourlesss just half an inch down.
> Is there much difference in using the mixture from Andrew Leas's website
> of calcium carbonate 3g/10l and sodium chloride 4g/10l rather than
> calcium chloride?
>
The recommendation comes from the old French booklet 'Comment faire du
bon cidre'. I think calcium chloride is preferable if you can get it -
for one thing you're not introducing any sodium - but it probably
doesn't make a whole heap of difference. The point is that chalk and
salt were more commonly available than was calcium chloride. The salt is
the least important part. I have used just the carbonate on its own and
so did some Long Ashton trials in the 1950's - the key thing is the
calcium to ensure sufficient complexation.
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Keeve picture
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 15:13:55 +0100
Here's a link to a demonstration picture of a keeve - what Gary Awdey
calls 'a brain in a jar'! It's not the best picture but it'll have to
do for now till someone gets a better one next season!
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/keeve.htm
Andrew
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: "Apples losing genetic diversity" news item
From: Peter G <peter.g@telus.net>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 18:59:13 -0700
Hi folks ,
there's a news item at the Toronto Star . http://tinyurl.com/3mdyy
"Apples losing genetic diversity : Scientists decry genetic
similarity of today's apples"
"The apple, the world's second-most popular fruit after the banana, is being
selectively bred toward monotonous, boring sameness. Mouth-watering taste
is being sacrificed in favour of enhanced colour, prolonged shelf life,
resistance to disease and physical resilience against bruising when being
transported great distances. The ongoing focus on apple qualities other
than flavour has doomed to extinction a huge proportion of the varieties
historically grown, not only in North America, but globally. Apple
varieties are passing into oblivion so fast that in North America some
16 varieties make up more than 90 per cent of domestic production; four
varieties account for almost 70 per cent of the continental market ..."
regards
peter g
------------------------------
Subject: Re:Yarlington Mill fireblight-susceptible?
From: tblists <tblists@pshift.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:32:03 -0400
>Does anyone have experience with Yarlington Mill being more-than-usually
>susceptible to fireblight?
No experience w/ YM directly, but I grow a lot of apples. It sounds like
you are looking for the rootstock to impart some sort of FB resistance to
the scion, but this doesn't happen. Yes, M7 is fairly resistant. That
explains why when you get strikes in the top of the tree they don't
immediately get down to the root system and kill the whole thing. With a
susceptible rootstock/cultivar combination(the classic is Gala on M9) the
inevitable infection goes straight down into the root system and quickly
kills the tree dead. If the scion cultivar is suscebtible, however, it is
so on any rootstock.
>As might be obvious, I'm asking because I've got a bit of a problem with
>it. Almost all of my trees are on EMLA-7, which is supposed to be fairly
>resistant to fireblight--and my experience seems to bear that out. A few
>trees are on other rootstocks, and I've had fireblight problems with them.
>All of the YM's are on EMLA-7, but two of seven are showing a sort of
>ongoing fireblight problem--a branch here and there through the summer.
>Each time I find a problem branch I cut it off (at greater distance from
>the apparent infection each time, as I get more paranoid!). And yes, I'm
>careful to clean the shears and my hands every time, and get rid of the
>infected branches and all that...the whole annoying routine afaik.
Removing strikes ASAP is the best way to deal with FB once it strikes. The
'ugly stub' method works best, where you cut the strike out 4-6 inches
below the apparent infection, leaving a stub about six inches
long. Flagging these stubs may be helpful, as you'll want to cut them off
on your coldest, driest dormant pruning day. This two-stage process helps
to remove the bulk of the active inoculum in the tree. Your next
management choice would be to apply a dormant copper spray, thoroughly
covering ALL trees in the orchard, as some others may carry the bacteria on
their surface. You can concern yourself with bloom sprays only after
tending to these other two first.
>It's a bit of a puzzle.
>I haven't seen fireblight on the other YM's. The two problem trees were
>planted in different years, and I had other YM's from the same source
>planted during each of the same years as the two problem trees...so
>I'd almost discount it being related to YM...-except- that it's two
>YM's in two different locations about 30 m apart (with my trees being
>on 5 m spacing). The trees are 7 and 6 years old, and haven't shown
>any problems in previous years, although they weren't really bearing
>then. I suppose they could have been mislabeled as to rootstock.
My guess is that you have some inocolum localized in the orchard, and it
may either not be getting fully cut out of the trees or harbored on other
trees which are resistant and so do not exhibit infection. You also may
want to look closely on the YM's to see if there are any trunk or limb
cankers which harbor the disease. More FB info can be found here:
http://www.caf.wvu.edu/kearneysville/disease_descriptions/omblight.html
>My real concern is that YM so far seems a very promising bittersweet
>for our area...but I don't want to plant up a whole bunch and find out
>they're more susceptible than average. I know rootstock ought to be the
>major factor in resistance, but . . . ???
I'd grow it anyway, but be ready to apply copper regularly and have those
shears ready when the strikes show...
My $0.02
TB
Terence Bradshaw
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
bradshaw@pshift.com
(802)229-2004
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
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End of Cider Digest #1155
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