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Cider Digest #1154
Subject: Cider Digest #1154, 6 August 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1154 6 August 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
RE:Growing zones for cider varieties ("James W Luedtke")
high acid cider (Tim Bray)
Re: Pectic Enzymes ("Carney, Shawn")
RE: Cider tasting ("John Howard")
("somcb/globalnet")
Yarlington Mill fireblight-susceptible? (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: RE:Growing zones for cider varieties
From: "James W Luedtke" <james.luedtke@cgi.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 10:31:18 -0500
Peter Johnson asked:
Does anyone know the US growing zones for the following cider varieties? I
live in zone 4 and was hoping to plant some or all of these.
Bramley's Seedling; Roxbury Russet; Brown's Apple; Kingston Black; Porter's
Perfection; Stoke Red.
Peter, check out the 2003 CD archives, issues #1084, 1085. They contain
reports on a number of cider varieties' performance in USDA zone 4.
Here in southern Minnesota, we had a fairly cold winter with minimum
temperatures approaching -30F. My orchard fared well, with just a handful of
flower buds being damaged (Brown's). No tree lost 100% of the flower buds.
This was the first winter I had Twistbody Jersey (on B-9 rootstock). I sold
some before bud break, but those I kept displayed no winter damage.
Jim Luedtke
------------------------------
Subject: high acid cider
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 09:43:10 -0700
In response to Mike Camp's questions:
>my TA test kit found the acidity to be around .80%
That's within the range I would expect from culinary apples, especially if
they were not 'sweated' before pressing.
> Will high acid
>ciders 'mellow' with age and, if so, will encouraging
>a malo-lactic fermentation help?
Yes, and yes. If you didn't sulfite, you might expect a natural MLF to
occur (although it really should have occurred by now, unless the cider has
been stored cold). ML bacteria are sensitive to sulfite, though, so it may
be unobtainable even with inoculation if your cider contains more than
about 50 ppm free sulfite. Even if you do not get MLF, I would expect the
sharpness to mellow somewhat, if it is only malic acid.
My ciders typically improve dramatically around the first of September, and
continue to improve for a few months. After that they seem to
stabilize. I've only had one that actually got worse over time (the FYN
got too strong).
> Should I assume that
>my high acid is due to the apples used or should I be
>getting ready to bottle some nice vinegar?
You should be able to detect acetic acid by taste. It will make the cider
sour, even if there is only a little of it present you should detect a sour
note. Ordinary malic acidity just makes the cider sharp, not sour.
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pectic Enzymes
From: "Carney, Shawn" <scarney@ball.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:11:33 -0600
Scott Smith wrote:
>Here is a summary of my understanding of the chemistry at this point:
>The PME demethylates the pectin chain, so the long chains now have
>multiple negatively-charged sites on them. Some of these sites will
>bind with nitrogen-containing compounds, and other sites on the same
>molecule (?) will bind with Ca ions. The resulting "salt" will be less
>soluble and so the whole big molecule will come out of solution, thus
>precipitating nitrogenous compounds as a side effect. Is this
>accurate? I also understand why more pectin in the fruit will give a
>better result: more pectin means more anions means more nitrogenous
>compounds bind and are precipitated. In fact, it suggests that pectin
>powder could be added to low-pectin juice to increase the amount of
>nitrogen removed by a keeve.
Instead of adding a pectin powder would a longer maceration (maturing
the ground apples before pressing the juice) time work?
Does anyone know the effect maceration has on tannin levels in the
juice? It seems that tannins would also leech out of the skin as well
as pectin.
Is there much difference in using the mixture from Andrew Leas's website
of calcium carbonate 3g/10l and sodium chloride 4g/10l rather than
calcium chloride?
Shawn Carney
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider tasting
From: "John Howard" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 15:22:25 -0400
A long delayed tasting report... Last fall my wife and I were fortunate
enough to collect a dozen small scale commercially produced American ciders
and host an informal tasting. No woodchucks in the lot. The ciders were:
Furnace Brook Cidre Special Reserve, Traditional Co. Macbeth's Three
Witches, Ford Farms Sparkling Dry, West County Six Apple, Rhyne Cider French
Style Sparkling, Aeppel Treow Appely, Sow's Ear Winery Late Season Premium,
West County Peckville Sweet, Flag Hill Farm Sparkling Cider, Farnham Hill
Farmhouse, Murdo's Farmhouse, and White Oak Cider Traditional English Style.
I was highly organized, with pencils, little cups, score sheets complete
with scoring system and suggested descriptors, palate cleansers, etc. The
score sheet was a hybrid of Proulx, Watson, and BJCP. I invited the local
beer columnist and various foodie acquaintances, chefs, caterers, and fellow
tipplers. Twelve showed, but unfortunately not the columnist, so no local
cider PR as a result. Not a cider drinker in the bunch. Scoring was erratic
and got more so as the evening progressed. Some took their task seriously,
others invented their own guidelines or changed scoring scales halfway
through, while others argued politics, played with the dog, or drifted off
to help with dinner. A good time was had by all, but no breakthroughs in
observational science.
After looking over their notes the next day, for what it's worth, I was able
to deduce a general ranking (see order above). More interesting than their
score sheets was their conversation. As cider novices, their basis of
comparison started from what they typically drank.
People either loved or hated the Ford Farms Sparkling Dry, Rhyne Cider
French Style Sparkling and the Aeppel Treow Appely. This makes some sense as
they were comparing these dry sparkling ciders to champagne, and people seem
to either like champagne or not. Our beloved dry New England and English
style ciders didn't fare as well, underscoring their status as a cultivated
taste -- only the scotch and beer drinkers seemed to appreciate them.
There seemed to be a general preference for ciders with higher acid levels.
I took samples of all 12 and titrated them the next day after allowing the
CO2 to dissipate. The top four all measured 0.500 acid as tartaric or above
(if you trust my lab skills).
Interestingly, the Furnace Brook came out as the general favorite. Tasters
approvingly found it "spicy," "winelike," "flowery," and "complex." Those
who didn't like it called it, "too sweet" or "candy-like." Despite its claim
to the Norman tradition, which includes a modified defecation process, I
find that its taste defies easy categorization. There is a complexity not
usually found in American artisanal ciders but it bears little resemblance
to the French stuff. Perhaps it's the time spent in newly toasted oak.
As was discussed on the digest recently, lumping the different styles
together in a comparison makes no sense, but all in all it was fun and the
world is a better place for containing a few less cider virgins.
Cheers, John Howard
Philadelphia PA USA
------------------------------
Subject:
From: "somcb/globalnet" <somcb@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 21:38:09 +0100
Following the comments about making Kingston Black cider. We use a lot of
Kingston Blacks and I believe that it is right that it makes an excellent
cider BUT it needs special treatment. It is too thin and acid just to
ferment it in a barrel and expect to drink it with any pleasure 4 months
later. I believe that it needs to go thru a malo lactic process and should
be matured in a barrel for at least a year. We make a fortified aperitif
from Kingston Black and use it in our Kingston Black bottle fermented
cider. For normal cider it can be greatly improved with a few dabinetts,
which is what cidermaking should be 'the craft of blending the different
apples' Julian Temperley www.ciderbrandy.co.uk.
------------------------------
Subject: Yarlington Mill fireblight-susceptible?
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:14:59 -0600 (MDT)
Does anyone have experience with Yarlington Mill being more-than-usually
susceptible to fireblight?
As might be obvious, I'm asking because I've got a bit of a problem with
it. Almost all of my trees are on EMLA-7, which is supposed to be fairly
resistant to fireblight--and my experience seems to bear that out. A few
trees are on other rootstocks, and I've had fireblight problems with them.
All of the YM's are on EMLA-7, but two of seven are showing a sort of
ongoing fireblight problem--a branch here and there through the summer.
Each time I find a problem branch I cut it off (at greater distance from
the apparent infection each time, as I get more paranoid!). And yes, I'm
careful to clean the shears and my hands every time, and get rid of the
infected branches and all that...the whole annoying routine afaik.
It's a bit of a puzzle.
I haven't seen fireblight on the other YM's. The two problem trees were
planted in different years, and I had other YM's from the same source
planted during each of the same years as the two problem trees...so
I'd almost discount it being related to YM...-except- that it's two
YM's in two different locations about 30 m apart (with my trees being
on 5 m spacing). The trees are 7 and 6 years old, and haven't shown
any problems in previous years, although they weren't really bearing
then. I suppose they could have been mislabeled as to rootstock.
My real concern is that YM so far seems a very promising bittersweet
for our area...but I don't want to plant up a whole bunch and find out
they're more susceptible than average. I know rootstock ought to be the
major factor in resistance, but . . . ???
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1154
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